Understanding Mahler: Bernstein's Legacy

This is an interesting compilation and, to my mind, represents some of the highlights of the Colombia cycle from Bernstein (though I think both the first and the 9th are better served in some of the later recordings, though the other ninths could be argued to be different rather than necessarily better).

With regard to the sixth, though, I'm not wild about scherzo-andante in the second movement. I also take issue with the suggestion that "Bernstein has a better understanding of this work in his little finger than all other 'modern' conductors combined". On the list of favourite recordings of the work I can think of at least three modern conductors (Mackerras, Jansons and Abbado) whose readings come higher up that Bernstein.

quote:

The problem with so much classical concert music is that it has no reason for being.. Music flows from the orchestra with a sense of faultless inevitability but there is no connection to the soul or body viscera that can make popular music so satisfying. In short it becomes cerebral, boring.

As someone who listens to an awful lot of the stuff, and attends rather more concerts that he should, I must say that statement doesn't at all reflect my experience.

I also reject your characterisation of the CD. I actually find it to be in many ways a superior medium, but that's probably a whole other thread.


regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:


With regard to the sixth, though, I'm not wild about scherzo-andante in the second movement. I also take issue with the suggestion that "Bernstein has a better understanding of this work in his little finger than all other 'modern' conductors combined"

I frequently use hyperbole when expressing opinions. And opinions,... is all they are. I can only comment on Abaddo, who's work in Mahler has made no particular impression on me. If his sixth is better than Bernstein's it must indeed be worth hearing, forgive me if I have my doubts..

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:


I also reject your characterisation of the CD. I actually find it to be in many ways a superior medium, but that's probably a whole other thread.

I agree, we want to avoid controversy there. If you ever have access to a good turntable well set up, I hope you will make the comparison, you might find it interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
As someone who listens to an awful lot of the stuff, and attends rather more concerts that he should, I must say that statement doesn't at all reflect my experience.

And good for you. Again, opinions are like... ah well... I listen to a good bit of it (orhestral music) myself, though my concert going is not as frequent. Over the years, I have learned what to avoid.... and what will connect with my senses. I'm sure your aware that concert music is not as popular as it ounce was.

Kind Regards

Noyes

Of course, each to their own. Diversity of taste is what makes this place, and any discussion of music, interesting.

Abbado's Berlin account of the 6th left me very cold the first time I heard it but has grown on me considerable on repeated listening - the impact of the hammer blows in the finale is just devastating.

However, if Abbado hasn't made much impression in the other works, I wouldn't want to advise you to spend your money on this.

regards, Tam

Not to be missed. The Mahler 5, in another great reading by Bernstein. I could make odious comparisons to conductors past (since there is less competition here it would be easy). I thought a great deal of Kubelik in it's time. Walters NYPO from the early 50's is nice but here Bernstein breaths life into what has become a timeworn masterpiece. A fantastic, multi dimensional, psychedelic 60's journey. You have been warned.

I couldn't locate an Lp cover on google but my copy also has the Kindertotenlieder with Jennie Tourel as filler. B takes a very slow tempo in these Funerals for the children. Depressing ? Yes. That's the point. I still can't get Ferreir out of my unconscious but I am learning to adjust.

Happy Listening


Noyes

Really? I have to say that I think this is pretty well the lowest point in Bernstein's colombia cycle. The dire recording qualify does not help, but the interpretation isn't particularly remarkable either - certainly not when compared with his later VPO recordings.

The Kindertotenlieder are much better.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Really? I have to say that I think this is pretty well the lowest point in Bernstein's colombia cycle.

To be sure, it doesn't jell as well as some of his other Mahler interpretations. That said, the standard of the others is so high that this can be forgiven, in my opinion.


This set (of the complete symphonies) put Mahler on the map and has an almost historical significance. Is the Fifth up to the standard of his magnificent 3rd (who's bim bamming boys chorus never ceases to amaze me with it's freshness) well, not really.

I guess this is where opinion and subjectivity leave off,... and we are stuck with our own reactions. This is part of what makes discussion in these forums worthwhile.

I admit I have become something of a Bernstein fanatic over the past decade or so. This is in part my own reaction to having ignored his work over the years. This may in part have been due to critical readings which put me off or to the fact that Bernstein was so ubiquitous during his lifetime. Whether on TV or radio you could not avoid him. If these tapes (of the 5th) were air lifted to us in the Saharah they would be welcomed with awe and wonder as a revelations that they are.

Thanks for your comments.

Noyes


PS. I don't hear the 'dire' recording that you do but the fact that we are listening to different media, might account for some of the subjective differences.

I don't dispute that the cycle is an historic one, and should be heard by Mahler fans. And it certainly has some extremely important recordings in it.

However, none of that excuses the 5th. It strikes me as rather a lacklustre affair and with some rather poor playing - particularly the horn in the opening movement. Interestingly, the CD box set includes a recording of the 4th movement Bernstein conducted at Robert Kennedy's memorial - which shows how much better he could play it.

I think that if this the only 5th I'd ever heard, might have decided not to investigate the work further. I'm a pretty big Mahler and Bernstein fan and, I think, have every Mahler recording he made (both CD and video) and in my view this is fairly comfortably the worst (though I'm not wild about either of his CD 8ths - a work that demands high fidelity and receives it only on the DVD).



With regard to the sound quality - it is possibly an issue related to the CD release. However, given that the sound is far below par for the set, it seems odd. I would also think that several of the reviews I have read (by people who would be familiar with the LPs) blame recording and the hall rather than the mastering.


regards, Tam

I totally disagree about the 5th being "comfortably his worst Mahler". Bad horn playing and all it is a great reading. I think it illustrates how little we agree, when I can say that Bernstein's recording of the 8th "Symphony of a Thousand" (about which you seem dismissive)is the first performance that made me love this work.

I meant this to be a positive thread about Bernstein and Mahler. We seem to agree on many things about Bernstein, Mahler and a host of other performers. I don't want to split hairs. I think it is good we have such a rich legacy of recordings to choose from. For that alone, I am most grateful, whatever anyone else may think or disagree with my assessment.


There are other conductors who's 5th and 8ths I have heard and found either offensive or downright boring. The names may include many artists you may or may not admire, among them Haitink (who I think has nothing to say about Mahler, apart from getting his orchestra to play magnificently), and Solti, who's recorded 8th's and 9th's with the CSO actually made me hate these works on initial hearing. I am not concerned with sound or orchestral pyrotechnics but only on going into the composers imagination and sound word, this Bernstein does in spades in nearly every Mahler recording I have heard. I cannot pretend to own 15 box sets or whatever, so I am going on my own necessarily limited experience.

Nice to have your view.


Noyes

I would like this to be positive too - since I think Bernstein's Mahler legacy is quite incredible.

Performances like his Concertgebouw 1st - which is simply magical (but then I love most Mahler with the Concergebouw, whose rich sound I think is especially well suited to the composer). Similarly almost all his 9ths, the ones from the 1970s, both with the VPO and the sole occasion he conducted the the BPO are especially captivating.

You mention the third symphony, and of course Bernstein's work here is very special too. I think I slightly prefer the later of the two New York recordings, but I think one is into hair splitting territory.

His LSO second, in Ely Cathedral and with Janet Baker is a wonderful video (if Humphrey Burton will insist on thinking the viewer is more interesting the building than the musicians).


As to the 8ths. Perhaps I am dismissive of them. My problem with the 8th (which I love as a work and is actually one of the two works that drew me into Mahler in the first place) is that I think, as I say, it demands a very high quality, technically, recording. Now, normally I place a much higher premium on musical performance as against sound quality, indeed many of my favourite recordings have been described as unlistenable due to their poor sound. One of the things that I like about Mahler is his genius for orchestration and in some ways the 8th seems a peak of that, not necessarily his most inventive orchestration but in terms of showing off the sheer scale of what could be done with those sorts of forces. If the recording is poor you lose a that. I'm afraid such is to a significant extent the case with the Bernstein (and also with the later DG recording which comes from a live performance as he didn't live to complete the cycle). That said, the DVD with the VPO suffers no such problems. Interestingly, the complete colombia cycle contains torso in the form of a NY part 1 of the 8th which is better, in my view, than the LSO and one wishes there was a full performance to enjoy. I love Solti, particularly in the 8th, which clearly you don't, but I can understand why some hold that view. But my benchmark is Sinopoli and the Philharmonia. I think John Barbirolli would have given a fascinating account had he lived to, though we would probably only have heard it view a poor radio relay.

I'm not a huge fan of Haitink, but I think you are too unkind to him. His third with the Concertgebouw, for example, is even more compelling that Bernstein's. But he seriously lacks weight in works like 2 and 8 particularly and the less said about his recent, and spectacularly dull Chicago 6th the better - which moved straight from my to be listened to pile to the charity shop pile.


regards, Tam

On another note - I'm amazed we seem to be the only people talking about this, it was not thus the last time this came up:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/6802979007/p/1

It's interesting reading that again - as my views have changed in some respects - e.g. the VPO 5th has grown on me considerably in the intervening three years. I would not now dispute that it is a classic recording.

Come on, everyone else, join in.

regards, Tam

I like the isolated Adagietto movement as recorded by Walter with the VPO for HMV in or before 1938, and I still have it, and I also used to have Barbirolli in the whole symphony [Number Five that is on full priced pair of HMV LPs], but, as Tam knows, this is hardly my favourite corner of the Symphonic repertoire!

I would rather read about it than expose my painfull lack of understanding of Mahler's psych!

Please carry on, gents. It is good to read that people are as concerned with the variance in performance of Mahler's music as I am with the variance in Bach, Haydn, and Beethoven for three examples!

ATB from George

Just for the heck of it, I looked up Bernstein's Mahler 5 NYPO recording at Amazon to get a flavor of the reviews. Looks like most of the reviewers agree with Tam's assessment, though there are enthusiastic dissenters. I have heard a few performances of this work in my time and I would not part with this recording for any other. For some reason, I find it fascinating though far from perfect. At any rate, here is a middle of the road assessment.


"3.0 out of 5 stars. Refreshing interpretation, substandard sound and playing, July 15, 2006

Bernstein's first heroic and historic Mahler cycle for CBS is quite almost the most satisfying complete 'one-conductor-mahler-cycle' available. It would have been a completely satisfying cycle were it not for this Fifth.

There really isn't any need to elaborate, even when the orchestra would have played with the distinction they gave the Third, Seventh, Sixth and about every other Mahler symphony in the cycle, they would have been beaten by a dismal sound recording which is, even by 1960's standards, completely unsatisfying. Too bad, because I feel Bernstein's view of the work (not as mannered as his fabled remake with the Vienna Philharmonic) is quite refreshing. Ah well, perhaps this is just as well, a completely flawless Mahler cycle doesn't exsist and neither should we be searching for one. Mahler himself, after all, wasn't perfect."


Incidentally, as regards the tentative playing of the brass in the opening movement. In Mahler's own piano recording, the opening fanfare is played listless, almost doleful, as befits a "Funeral' March. This fanfare is not a call to arms but a bereavement.

Noyes