Quality of reissues versus original pressings
Posted by: Dr. Exotica on 05 February 2002
My questions are the following:
- Are the heavy pressings sonically worth the price differential?
- How do these compare with the original pressings (provided that you can find exception original copies - e.g., near mint, etc.)?
For sake of discussion, assume one is interested in classical jazz (Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, etc.); thus, the original pressings will be from the 1955-1965 time period.
Erik
Erik,
Go to Fantasyjazz.com and request one of their catalogs. They have a whole lot of the above on new vinyl that sound terrific for $9.98 each.
Regards,
John
Sometimes, the original mastering is screwed up and does not reflect the intentions of the artist (the first pressing of Are You Experienced suffers from this - all the out of phase stuff was monoed), so it pays to know your stuff. Also sometimes it can be difficult to spot a first pressing - did they have 3 or 4 attempts at cutting side 1 thererore is the original 1 C or D? Buying a re-issue relieves you of this.
Moving forward to the seventies, there is so much great quality vinyl out there that thr original pressings (the "promotional only not for resale "sticker is a giveaway - first pressing never palyed generally) that a re-issue is overkill. Also, cutting became more artist-orientated so screw-ups are far less.
The other reissue label to recommend is Sundazed. Their work is superb, always analogue from original masters. The Dylan, Iggy Pop, Stax and Love re-issues are all fabulous and cheap at $12.
A reissue label is avoid is 'Scorpio' - only identifiable from a small sticky label on the back - done some Captain Beefheart. It says uses analogue master on the front label, but they are not cut from the analogue master. They are cut fropm a digital copy of it. So beware. A lot of their stuff sounds like crud.
I have found no direct correlation between between the weight of vinyl and its sound quality. I have found a direct correlation between half-speed mastering and boredom though - beware of MFSL vinyl.
One thing to note, is that in my my case my tonearm and cartrige were set with a standard 120 g pressing and so a 180 gram of higher pressing will screw the VTA up a little.
Ramble over.
I'm tempted to go off on several related tangents on this thread but I'll contain my enthusiasm with a couple of comments that reflect my experience.
(Note, added after writing the stuff below and rereading it before posting it--it surprises me how many tangents I do end up taking! I apologize if I don't address your specific question, which seems to focus on the relative quality of the current crop of jazz reissues, especially the Classic ones.)
1. With my Linn/Ittok, surface noise is a minor issue on most used vinyl. I don't have a VPI record cleaner but do plan to get one as I have found that deep cleaning of used, beat-up, thrashed looking albums eliminates most of the noise and I can truly enjoy the music. But I may have a higher threshold for noise than others. If you don't already have a fairly good table then a used AR or Linn or other decent deck is (IMHO) a requirement. Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir here, since I didn't take the time to look up your profile and you may already have a great 'table... But for me, a Linn with an Ittok eliminates 90% of the surface noise I used to hear...and of course there are many alternatives out there now that are at least as good or better.
2. I generally find that, the closer to the original the pressing, time-wise, the better the sound. Especially for pressings that pre-date the transition from tubes to solid state in the recording studio around 1963.
3. The Fantasy reissues are good. How good? Difficult to say, as I don't have duplicates to be able to compare them to the originals. But I find them good enough that I can enjoy the music. And they are cheap enough, by comparison to the originals, that I can take a chance on them if I'm not familiar with the music.
4. An early re-issue label (by early, I mean late 60's to mid-70's) I enjoy is the Trip label. These were probably pretty much budget-line reissues when they came out but I think they sound extremely good.
5. Another good reissue label is VSOP. These were put out, I believe, in the 1980's using original cover art and, I think, in many cases original stampers. If I recall correctly, I have a reissue that includes a swing groove! Obscure repertoire, label-wise (Tampa and Dig for instance) and also usually lesser known artists.
6. In my opinion, by far the best "value" can be found in reissues from the 70's, which have little "collector" value and can often be picked up for very little money. Blue Note two-fers, reissues of Pacific Jazz, Riverside, Debut, Fantasy, Savoy all have provided musical satisfaction in my collection. In my travels I even find that, in many places, these reissues now are commanding prices into the 'teens, where originals are many times that.
7. IMHO Japanese pressings are not a guarantee of fidelity to the original though they have their own merits. Vinyl quality is very high and sonics are good, though I have a Mingus SAvoy reissue that is quite rolled-off in the treble, by comparison to my mid-60's reissue of the same title. They seem to uniformly have a "smoothness" that, while it makes them easy to listen to, seems to deviate from the originals. Because they were expensive when they came out they tend to be expensive in the used racks, especially the Blue Notes.
8. I like the Mosiac reissues and have a half dozen or more. These almost uniformly are excellent and great value for money, though, if you are looking for replicas of the original releases you won't find them. Rather, they are encyclopedic compilations, with the tunes pressed in the order in which they were recorded rather than as they were sequenced on commercial releases and include alternate takes, etc.
9. I also like the reissues on the Fresh Sounds label and rate them very high. I appreciate the eclectic breadth of their reissues and that their choices seem to tend towards the obscure.
I don't think I've answered your question and think I've drifted off into philosophy, for what it's worth. I always seem to be able to find about ten to twenty times more than I can afford to buy, so appreciate a good bargain when I find it. I also have found that the artistic and musical value of many many items bears NO relation to the price I paid for it. Often a cheap, anonymous looking record, bought out of curiousity, provides absolutely superb sound and artistic and musical satisfaction while a "special" reissue seems kind of "ho-hum".
One final comment, maybe. I once happened upon a collection of original pressings and, having some extra money at the time, bought almost all of them. Paid pretty good prices, too--at least for me--$20-40/record. The sonics on these records were enough to blow my mind and helped me understand why people with lots of money will pay $75-300 and up for original pressings. But ultimately, I've come to value the variety, uniqueness, obscurity and discovery available via the better reissue labels as I've tried to describe above, more than owning a few originals... Is an original Herbie Nichols Blue Note worth, say, $350? Yes, undoubtedly. It is a piece of history and may be a bargain at the price. But I'd probably enjoy spending that money over a longer period of time on the stuff I've described above. And thats what I tend to do... In short, ask yourself, am I going to see this item again? If not, buy it. If yes, then look for the more obscure item.
Markus
Every "heavy" I own (jazz or not) has developed an amazing amount of surface noise -- which makes no sense, because I don't play them that often. Every "cheaper" new reissue I own is still dead quiet. (I second the comments on Riverside and Fantasy reissues, they are very good). I also have found grungy, somewhat worn original releases can sound better, after a good cleaning, than a squeaky clean reissue, musically speaking.
A good cleaning and a good playback system eliminate most surface noise, and whatever remains should be easy to "tune out" because everything else will be so good.
I find japanese reissues sound clean and clear, but have less life or soul in them.
And your Web site is a blast! Strong work.
M
A couple of your comments have stirred my curiosity. Specifically about the "sonics of the Classics" being better than the Mosaic reissues, where direct comparison is possible. I think you said they "blow away" the other reissues.
I don't actually remember if I own any Classic reissues. I might--wasn't the Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" one of the first releases by Classic? The sonics on that album certainly seem good. But, when the Mingus CBS sessions were released by Mosaic it seemed that the sound of that reissue was considered the benchmark for the CBS recording sessions. If I recall correctly, this was because of the way the reverb was mixed in to the original releases, the reissue providing clearer insight into the performance, in the reviewers opinions. Partly due to reading this opinion (I think it was in the Absolute Sound) and partly due to being satisfied with my late 60's pressing, I never picked up the Classic reissue tho' I got the Mosiac CBS compilation. The high prices of the Classics has put me off although I appreciate the quality of the sleeves and apparent heft of the vinyl. So, are you saying that the Classics are sonically really really good? Not having heard most of them I'm hesitant to put down the money on them, tho' I kick myself for not picking up Kind Of Blue when it was around. Which ones do you own or have you heard and can you make any generalized comments about how they compare to the original pressings, the Fantasy's and the Mosaics? Oh, one more example I can think of, though I don't have any direct experience with the Classic reissue, was with the "Let No Man Write My Epitaph" release by Ella. Owning mono and stereo originals I was interested to read a reviewer say that, even though the sonics on the reissue were great, they had somehow lost something special that only seemed to be available on the original pressings...
Maybe another question for you to consider and which I'd be interested in is for you personally. Given a choice between a, say, vg- to vg+ original and an equivalently priced Classic, which would you choose?
And another question (yes I know I'm piling them on here!) is, which Classics are the best or most satisfying from an artistic point of view? Your favorites and recommendations.
Thanks for any input here, folks.
Gosh! I seem to have returned, in a very roundabout way, to the original question that started this thread!!! Does this mean I'm losing my mind?
Markus
There is also a complete Japanese 10" recent series of all the 1500 series BN LPs, mono full analogue chain.
I don't have any originals to compare with Mosaic but for example the Miles Davis Blackhawk is brilliant. I also got the Illinois Jacquet set and it has that big blousy swinging feel of older records.But many of the other Mosaics dont get close to say original HMV/London/Decca/ Lps I have .
John
In any event, supposing that you were going to purchase reissues - who are your favorite sources. The two that come to mind for me are (one of which was mentioned earlier):
Any other good ones out there?
Erik
quote:
I'm really curious whether the Mosaic LPs are sonically superior to the CBS boxes
In my system, they are sonically and musically superior to the CDs (in spite of using what I think is an extremely good CD player). I love DCC vinyl and CDs though....
BTW Kind of Blue is available from Classic again. Also Muddy Water's Folk Singer is available from Classic and is musically and sonically wonderful. Crank the DBLs up and Muddy is in your room.
quote:
who are your favorite sources
Well, I like Acoustic Sounds because they have a lot of stock. You may want to try Red Trumpet too.
My favourite source by far, is ordering from my local LP specialist. Not only do they charge less ($24 for a Classic, $12 for a Sundazed), you don't pay postage while supporting your local retailer. In my case they also sell loads of great second-hand vinyl at really low prices - e.g original cut Little Feat in prime condition $4.50 each. Once you get over the hurdle of getting them to stock expensive Vinyl they are normally very helpful and keep and eye out for good stuff coming up. Try it.
It's hit and miss with all recordings what you get. Whether they're original first pressings (how you know that is impossible, except for promo sticker) or 1/2 speed masters. It depends on who did the mastering, cutting etc..
I have mfsl pressings which are far superior than any other pressings I have been able to find of same albums.
Often it is complicated comparing pressings. The volume of the recording has to be the same, you should also listen more than 10 mins to each recording. mfsl's are always low volume so when you first play them they seem to dissapoint. Turn them up and they sound fantastic.
Sometimes there are bad mfsl's like Simon & Garfunkel - Bridge over troubled water.
You will get more information about pressings from forums such as http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/index.php?s=d9144304998dc54c5aa4fa4926a19fdd
They discuss pressings issues in detail unlike the Naim forums where taking equipment to pieces and insulting each other seems to be the pleasure.
quote:
if I get hold of something better it is just gonna blow my mind
Jonathan, if you buy Classic Record's version of Ah-um, you may wish to get hold of a hard-hat to insure that your brain's contents do not splash the ceiling. It is, to say the least, a very nice re-issue. I'd also prepare a mop and bucket for when the KoB vinyl arrives....
1. I own individual LPs of many albums from my Mosaic sets, especially Blue Notes. I have compared Mosaic Blue Note LPs to reissues from UA, Liberty, King and Toshiba (original pressings are too expensive for me). In every case, the Blue Note has sounded better to me than the Mosaic, although often times it is very close. Likewise, Classic reissues (Blue Notes and others)have also sounded better to me than the Mosaic version. This is not to say that I don't like the sound of my Mosaic sets, because I do. It's just that the others are better.
2. I also own all of the Miles Davis Mosaic LP sets and have compared them to the CDs. I think that the LPs are far superior sound wise and well worth the extra money. The same goes for the Coltrane Atlantic recordings, the Rhino vinyl set is highly recommended.
3. The only real differences I have notice between the 180gram and regular thickness vinyl is that the thinner vinyl is more likely to be warped. Sound-wise I don't hear any difference. Also, I have not had any problems with 180gram vinyl becoming noisy.
Mark
IMO the Mobile Fidelity 200gm reissues (their last before they stopped making vinyl) were very good and superior to their earlier ones that were sometimes hit and miss.
Another source to try is Adagio (www.adagioplus.com).
Paul