Return of the Prodigal Sondek!

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LP12 + ARO is surely the best there is

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No, not by a fair margin. However, it's one of the most live-able-with turntables out there. FWIW I run an LP12/Aro/Armageddon/Helikon and it's a decent deck. But it's by no means the best thing out there.

John

TC '..'
"Sun went down in honey. Moon came up in wine. Stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord, the band kept us so busy we forgot about the time."

Subjective, sure, but realistic and informed too

I think continually banging on about it being the be-all and end-all deck is far more subjective than my rather more realistic viewpoint. Heck, and I actually own one too. It seems the only people who ever claim the Sondek to be the best deck ever are its owners... but it is a nice deck, no argument there, just not the best.

John

TC '..'
"Sun went down in honey. Moon came up in wine. Stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord, the band kept us so busy we forgot about the time."

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It seems the only people who ever claim the Sondek to be the best deck ever are its owners...

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Well, er, yeah...

OK then. It's the most live-able turntable. Which makes it the best. Is that simple enough?

<<---going back to the music.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Well, erm, hang on. What does 'live-able' mean?

Much affection as I have for the dear old thing, the combination of its fussiness over set-up and the not-necessarily-easy-to-use-when-pissed ARO mean it is not as user-friendly as, ooooh say, a Rega P9.

Tim

May I clarify?

Live-able-with (and I wish I'd chosen something a bit less grammatically awkward) to me means consistent, even-handed and enjoyable. In my case, it particularly means that my LP12 makes less of a fuss over vinyl quality than my previous deck, though the previous deck sounded better by a significant margin. However, that was on better quality vinyl, and on less-than-perfect recordings or pressings, the LP12/Aro/Armageddon claws back an advantage and doesn't get too upset.

Doesn't make it a better deck, though. It does make it easier to live with given the relative rarity of new, pristine vinyl, hence 'live-able-with'

John

TC '..'
"Sun went down in honey. Moon came up in wine. Stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord, the band kept us so busy we forgot about the time."

Hi

So JeremyB what are you doing with the SME 10, and what were you using on it.

Paul

Paul,
I don't know what I will do with the SME 10. Maybe run 2 TTs or put it in a second system. It's only a year old but I don't suppose I'd get anything for it s/h.

I use the standard (M10) arm and Koetsu Onyx.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

I'll be pleased to take the deck off you for "not anything".

Markus,

Thanks for the offer but I have to let all this sink in. It's something of a shock right now.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

I was actually also contemplating of replacing my LP12/Aro with the SME 10 or 20. Could you describe a bit more what is the difference what you not like about the SMEs? Thanks. You can email me ngccglp@yahoo.com.

david

JA T--

"Wouldn't you rather have one of these?" In a word--no.

John C.--Depends on what you mean by "best." I've never heard a table/arm combo that was better at everything than the LP12/Aro/Geddon. I'd be willing to grant that something out there might be able to do it, I just haven't heard it. The only serious contender that I'm aware of is the Rockport, which Mr. Toon was kind enough to illustrate above. Another possibility might be the SME 30, though the 10 does nothing for me.

And I can't agree with you on the Clearaudio--heard a variety of them against a top notch LP12 and only the top two Clearaudios put up any kind of a fight...and neither was superior, overall, to the LP12.

As I've said before, sources and speakers seem to be the most personal choices one makes when assembling a hifi system. What works for one might not work for another. With sources in particular, I think the hearing characteristics of a person drive what that person will like.

Best,

Bob

I've heard the Rockport Sirius System III and it was absolutely incredible. It's one of those products that doesn't seem to have any character of its own, you just hear precisely what is on the disk, nothing more nothing less. If I had a spare £55k I definitely be interested.
John

John--

The only table I've heard that would comparable at all to the Rockport was the Goldmund Reference. I had the same reaction to the Goldmund that you had to the Rockport. And the Reference was "only" about $30K in its day...

Bob

Jeremy that cartridge looks outrageous, dosn't push the needle out too far in the non adjustable Aro?

Garyi,
With the Koetsu the stylus is way back under the cartridge so it's not as bad as it looks. I suppose it is something like the principle of a mid-engine sports car. The stylus to mounting hole distance is definitely within the spec given in the ARO manual. Sounds fine too - no mis-tracking at all on any part of the record. May be worth checking with a protractor though. My belief is that the LP12 is worth investing in for your record collection, whatever it takes.

Hi Jeremy

Have you ever heard the SME 10 with their SME V perhaps that could potential upgrade. I have a 20 with a Dynavector XV-1. A friend of mine with a SME 30 tried the cart you have and was not to fond of it, lack of senergy?

Paul

Paul,

I didn't get to try the V on the 10, but I did listen to the 20 and the 30 which both had the V fitted. Although both 20 and 30 were fantastically detailed, the music fell apart for me and got disjointed, plus the 10 had way more rythm. I have heard that the IV.V may fix some of this although I didn't get to try it. The IV.V would have been my next step had I not rediscovered the LP12/ARO.

I totally agree with you about the system synergy. I found that a fantastically detailed system can provide almost the same level of involvement and enjoyment as a PRaT system. In fact the Koetsu Urushi sounded fantastic in the 20 and 30 with valves and Quad ESL or Avalon speakers, good in the 10 and terrible at home in the Naim system.
The Rosewood sounded worse than the Urushi in the non-Naim system but better in the Naim system. The Onyx sound good in both systems, but when combined with the 552 it is something special, risk taking and startling is the impression I have. This impression is actually reduce somewhat in the LP12/ARO (you can't have everything!).
I feel it is ok to use the terms "better" and "worse" in this comparison since I did genuinely appreciate the equivalence musically of the detailed tonal texture approach and the fast rythmic approach.
I don't think that synergy between the TT and the cartridge (as long as they are not out of spec) is as much a factor as the synergy between the cartridge and the rest of the system. The Rosewood/Onyx are very different from the Urushi.

The thing I can't quite figure out is why the 10 was such a step up from the LP12 in a 52/135 system and the LP12 is so much better in a 552/500 system. Maybe there are other factors, or maybe the colourations revealed in the 10 are more objectionable than the colourations revealed in the LP12/ARO.

What cartridge does your freind use in the SME30?

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy

My friend is running a Dynavector XV-1s, but he is running it in an all American system, Pass XOno, Cary, and homebrew speakers, high effeciant type speakers.
A very different presentation than Naim no question. He gets to play with a lot of different stuff. Cool perks of the industry.

Paul

Paul,
How do you find the difference between the XV-1 and XV-1s? My TT dealer didn't carry DV and all but refused to discuss them unfortunately.
I got the impression that DV were perhaps going for a less bright and mechanical sound, perhaps in the direction of the Koetsus, what with the ebony and so on.

Jeremy

Dear All,

FWIW, I've been using an SME Model 20/Series V for almost a decade in a Naim-amped system - currently 52/SUPERCAP/250. I've always been extremely satisfied with the SME, but never more so than when I recently ditched my Lyra Clavis DC and replaced it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature - it's now sounding absolutely fantastic!

My only regret is having bought a Lyra five years ago instead of a Koetsu. I was living in Tokyo at the time, and the price of both cartridges was exactly the same. Unable to get a demo, I made my choice based on the fact that just about every review of the Clavis DC was positive while there were a number of people saying that the "new" Koetsus (made by Sugano-san's son) weren't anything like as good as the original ones (made by Sugano-san senior, RIP). Oh well, you live and learn

Adrian

HI JeremyB

The main differneces between the two carts is being smoother on the top end cleaning up the last bit of grain if you will. The Dynavector does the things that many fo the great carts do but put them all in one package. The smoothness and midrange of your Keotsu, dynamics of Clearaudio, speed of Lyra. It is a good all around cart.
Another cart I a like a lot is the Miyabi/47, I like it better than the Dynavector, but it does not perform as well on the SME as the Dynavector, that is what I mean by the synergy thing.

Paul