SBL Setup Query

There's no comparison with the seal installed correctly - IMHO the SBLs sound appaling when the seal breaks, completely wrong and disjointed - no coherence. With a well-installed seal, the bass in particular will crystalise and start to play tunes. This effect can be heard in the midrange also. There's lots on the Forum on setup - do a search; I cannot stress how important it is to get these set up properly.

If I understand it correctly (and Im sure I dont) the SBL wont work if the mid and bass cabinets are rigidly connected (the S = separate), as you suggest by using a stronger silicone. A similar effect can be heard by setting the speakers up properly and then ramming the mid cabinet hard down onto the spikes so that they penetrate the aluminium pads and enter the cabinet - thus effectively coupling the mid and bass. This is definitely not recommended and will ensure your SBLs sound s**t!

Steve

Thanks, I have a whole load of documents printed from this forum, just wanted to focus and get a feel from here on how diffeent they are sealed and unsealed.

JR,

I see you've wandered into the dark(SBL!) side......
May the (naim) force be with you..... 8)

Well its probably a little pointless trying to get this information, the speakers were not designed to be used without the seal and therefore I would imagine like myself no one else uses them without the seal.

Get them where you want them and seal um up!
http://homepage.mac.com/garethirwin/rebuildSBLs.pdf

quote:

---

just wanted to focus and get a feel from here on how diffeent they are sealed and unsealed.

---

Your ears will tell you this when you seal them. Until then, it's all academic. It's along the lines of "I wonder how my LP12 will sound when I install the arm correctly, and set the suspension".

I agree with Garyi. Those who lash up SBL's and listen to them when they have not followed the instructions, well - they must be die-hard audiophools of some description, anyway.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laxton:
JR,

I see you've wandered into the dark(SBL!) side......
May the (naim) force be with you..... 8)

---

Thanks, Laxton

You're right of course, Garyi and Rico, but I have no choice at the moment except to listen to them without the seals. I'll probably get the gasket after another month from the UK to here. At least I was able to find the proper distances from the wall and from each other.

Thanks, Ebirah, that is what I wanted to hear

"Those who lash up SBL's and listen to them when they have not followed the instructions, well - they must be die-hard audiophools of some description, anyway.
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio"

You mean like that audiophool who demonstrated his SBLs and Kans alternately and broke the SBL seal so had to demonsrate how properly to re-seal them and incidently what a good tweater the SBL has)?

Come to think of it, he was a New Zealander too, although living in London.

Timo

joey, sbls unsealed do not sound like SBLs. when those little suckers are up and running you wont believe your ears.

run actively, the SBL is a highly insightful speaker. many people believe that it is the best speaker naim ever made.

i like the way the Allae is going, though my experience is still limited to 52/500 on the upper limit and a pre power 5 series at the lower end.

before i get out of line, a supercapped snaxo 4pack sbl will whack the single 500 sbl on timing, coherence, intelligibility (musical grounds) and the single 500 will make up for it in purity and it's also pretty coherent in its own way, being more natural sounding than 135s, (having the edge in tonality) I prefer the 4pack of cos.

ideal of course is the active 500s on sbls which is not overkill to me, but i'm sure it is for some (and within this group a subset who've even heard it before making such comments heh heh).

hope this helps you on your journey.

vik.

quote:

---

You mean like that audiophool who demonstrated his SBLs and Kans alternately and broke the SBL seal so had to demonsrate how properly to re-seal them and incidently what a good tweater the SBL has)?

---

<big grin> errr, guilty as charged, m'lud. Although, in the said auidphool's defence, the assembled crowd had surely never before seen such a lightening-speed demonstration of exacting SBL setup. Such that it made the kans seem unhurried by comparision!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vik:
joey, sbls unsealed do not sound like SBLs. when those little suckers are up and running you wont believe your ears.

run actively, the SBL is a highly insightful speaker. many people believe that it is the best speaker naim ever made.

before i get out of line, a supercapped snaxo 4pack sbl will whack the single 500 sbl on timing, coherence, intelligibility (musical grounds) and the single 500 will make up for it in purity and it's also pretty coherent in its own way, being more natural sounding than 135s, (having the edge in tonality) I prefer the 4pack of cos.

hope this helps you on your journey.

vik.

---

Thanks, Vik. Am eagerly awaiting your call for the gasket !!

But now, you're saying a 4 pack will whack a single 500 ... more food for thought again !

And yes, 2 500s with SBLs is really something. It will for sure amaze tube users who think only tubes can reproduce the female voice well.

Thanks for all the replies, my gasket finally arrived. Thanks to Garyi too, I now have a spare one !

Impressions ? Indeed, bass has taken on a new meaning, totally in control. And I believe these SBLs are great for classical too, the slam is tremendous - Pictures At An Exhibition, Faust, Baer Mountain, Tchaikovsky, Zarathustra ! I don't normally listen to classical, I'd rather have Metallica, Megadeth, RATM, but these speakers are drawing me in deep into all types of music.

I have to temper my enthusiasm, though. I have now found out that the SBLs are excellent even without the gaskets ! The only issue is on some (not many) tracks with a lot of upper bass where it bottoms out without the gaskets. Without the gaskets, it was a bit incoherent at first 5 inches away from the wall - bringing it in 2 inches (the maximum) cleared this up.

These SBLs sure are a bit difficult to drive compared to my old Proac Response 3. After a single session with any slamming track, either classical or rock, the fans on my 135s really start spinning hard ...

Joseph... on a totally different thread, I notice from your personal details that you are powering your prefix with a supercap. I have a Michell Orbe/sme V/Lyra Helikon feeding a `K` prefix/hicap/52/scap/135s. Question: how does a prefix/scap compare with a prefix/hicap? (if you have made this comparison)

Laurie S

joey, 2 inches? no good. have em hug the wall if possible. Julian intended them this way.

Next, most rooms are not acoustically even in the seemingly short physical distance between left and right speaker and the listening position. Now, your primary objective is to get phase linearity for each speaker, and then linearize them as a pair. Therefore, the SBLs need not be equidistantly placed with respect to side walls.

Linearise the LF, MF and HF in their time relationships with one another. I use the Alan Parsons "Pink Noise Test". Ben uses the XLO "Phase Test". Its faster to set them this way than using music. Once you get a correct "feel" from one speaker, then move to the other one. Replicate that feel on the other channel. THEN use music to check if the speakers are too close together. If you have done it right there should be a little midbass thickness. This is caused by the summing effect of bass frequencies as they interact with a typical room node about that area of frequencies. Move the speakers apart incrementally. It is allright if it is only one speaker that need be moved. So sort this out and you're there.

If you achieved correct phasing there would fundamentally be only one correct sound. And that could happen if they were 40 feet apart or 4 feet apart. You either get it, or you dont. And that's NOT subjective.

With SBLs pitching correctly you will discern the interplay of musicians, the primary and secondary rhythm sections, emotional involvement of the musicians, so many other things.

You may have to recalibrate your beliefs after this because you could move them further to enhance the soundfield, or move them in to enhance tightness, but this, at best, will truncate the performance to some types of music or better recordings. At worst, the system becomes boring. Or in the case of Naim users, rough. Tragically, this is what most audiophiles are taught to do from the day they desire anything above a minicompo - to setup according to tone, rather than musicality. And to hide behind the biggest lie in hi-fi. That sound is subjective. Well yes it is, just as a woman can be physically attractive but fundamentally she has to be sane before you can appreciate her physical attributes. Audiophiles are taught, in parallel, to propose to a potential spouse based on looks alone, before being reasonably certain that he or she will not chase you around the house with a knife on some moonlit night.

The idea of hifi is to make sense of even junk recordings, or dump it all and get a mini-compo, thats what i tell all my customers.

Pay no attention to the staging aspect a la audiophile. Such as tweeter to tweeter 7 feet apart. When you get it right, there will be so much insight that the soundstage you get is similar to a live band stage in front of you.

Hope this helps. These postioning tips can be extrapolated to other speakers, including panel speakers. Though for speakers that are not wall hugging, part of the set up includes distance to the rear wall to achieve best LF balance.

Vi

Vic

I used to have my SBL's slap bang up against the wall. The speakers were on either side of a 6 ft wide fireplace which came out about 9".

They sounded good but nothing special.

On the advice of a dealer, I pulled them out so there was a gap of about 5" behind the speakers and they sounded so much better.

Before, the sound seemed to be contained within the speakers, but afterwards the sound seemed to be everywhere.

I think you really do need to experiment.

Regards

Mick

Vik,

What an excellent piece of writing! That is such a good description of how (I always suspected) SBLs work, especially with regard to the rhythm structures becoming so much easier to follow when you get the setup right.

Thomas

Thanks, Vik, will let them hug the wall (that means the speaker cable will also be touching the wall) .... will also try out the XLO or Alan Parsons ...

One question, what do you mean by "Once you get a correct "feel" from one speaker" ? Let's say I hear pink noise, what change in the pink noise sound should I expect while moving the speakers ?

You should be able to get them up to the wall without the speaker cable touching - are you using Naim plugs on the NACA5?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie Saunders:
Joseph... on a totally different thread, I notice from your personal details that you are powering your prefix with a supercap. I have a Michell Orbe/sme V/Lyra Helikon feeding a `K` prefix/hicap/52/scap/135s. Question: how does a prefix/scap compare with a prefix/hicap? (if you have made this comparison)

Laurie S

---

Laurie, IMHO, the Hicap is good, but a bit on the cold side. The Supercap retains the Hicap's qualities, but adds in refinement and eliminates the slight hardness in the sound of the Hicap. Music just flows freely, while with the Hicap, it can get tiring in time (sometimes I miss just using the NAC52 to drive the Prefix).

The price difference is around 3x, but it isn't 3x better (But that's the case anyway in hifi upgrades usually). The Supercap is a worthy upgrade from the Hicap, if you don't think about the price (or if you find one used).

Vik,

Interesting post, but I'm afraid I don't understand the setup procedure described completely.

quote:

---

Linearise the LF, MF and HF in their time relationships with one another. I use the Alan Parsons "Pink Noise Test". Ben uses the XLO "Phase Test". Its faster to set them this way than using music. Once you get a correct "feel" from one speaker, then move to the other one.

---

How does this work in practice?
1. Where do you sit? in your usual listening position?
2. Do you move the balance to one speaker?
3. When you say "once you get a correct 'feel'", do you mean by moving the speaker?

Sorry if these questions sound silly, but I've never heard a test CD, so I don't know what there is to hear. I had a quick look on the Internet and I only found the XLO test CD, the Alan Parsons CD is no longer available, so I'll give the XLO a try.

Ciao!

Willem

Guys lets not lose sleep over this, plug the f**king things in, sit back and enjoy some music.

Jesus.

Mick, I know that pulling them away will give a different type of sound, which is somewhat musically appealing, and bring out typical perceptions of depth. I have done this before, but it places severe compromises to timing.
When LF is not robust enough in quantity, microdynamics such as resonances of string, percussion instruments and voices, hall ambience (yes, soundstage!) will never be right. The sound will not have a foundation, but there will be depth. But do you really want that?

The SBLs may have you listening to music differently. And whilst this must surely be unacceptable for some people to accept, I have come to see that SBLs, especially running active, is a true world reference that stands up to a lot of other great loudspeakers out there. And is still about the cheapest around to get to the level of world reference. Thanks for volunteering that information though. I think every SBL owner should move them out at one point to see what happens.

Also, on feel........
its impossible to get a feel for pink noise per se LOL. But what i meant with pink noise was that the frequency spectrum must be uninterrupted such that the same volumes of bass mid and highs must be discerned, from your seating position. You cant afford to get more of any of these elements, even if it's based on preference. But for the XLO disc its possible because you are listening to speech.

Thanks.

Vik.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vik:
But what i meant with pink noise was that the frequency spectrum must be uninterrupted such that the same volumes of bass mid and highs must be discerned, from your seating position.

---

Thanks, that makes it a lot clearer.

quote:

---

You cant afford to get more of any of these elements, even if it's based on preference. But for the XLO disc its possible because you are listening to speech.

---

But, I didn't understand the last bit. What is possible with the XLO disc because it uses speech? I suppose I just have to try it out myself!

Ciao!

Willem

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rico:
You should be able to get them up to the wall without the speaker cable touching - are you using Naim plugs on the NACA5?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

---

Yes, using Naim plugs ... I'll try my best ... I actually don't want them to touch the wall or even the underside of the speakers. Also the speaker cables going into the tweeter and mid box will surely touch the wall. They're not exactly cut to length.

But that's just my audiophile tendencies, I guess it won't matter much ... will try it out ...

I completely agree with Vik comments re:

>>>When LF is not robust enough in quantity, microdynamics such as resonances of string, percussion instruments and voices, hall ambience (yes, soundstage!) will never be right. The sound will not have a foundation, but there will be depth. But do you really want that?

This is why I find free space speakers to be a nauseating listening experience.

I have my SBL's on a wooden floor with the spikes resting on metal floor protectors (like the Fraim Chips). It is easy for me to gently slide the SBL about without disrupting the set up and I have tried pulling away, toed in, even reversed (ala Jimmy Hughes), one reversed out of phase one regular free standing in phase, you name it I've done it. It's worth experimenting, but standard set up hard against the wall is best.

regards

Dev

Having seen your room I would guess the reason the SBL's didn't work as well would be reflections from the fireplace and the shelving aboveit. That's why placing the front of the SBL proud of the fireplace was an improvement in some areas. I reckon your SBL's would have worked better firing down your room.

regards

Dev

ps. you'd be more than welcome to come and hear mine if you ever in my neck of the woods.