Evening All
Things are not as they should be in Kan land. I should be listening to music but instead I'm looking for advice....
A couple of months ago I started a thread to get some upgrade advice which broadly confirmed my thoughts that my TT was the weakest link (Anne Robinson agrees) and I am now in the middle of a process to choose between EKOS and ARO with a rebuilt (by Linn) Troika to replace my Akito/K9 on a Cirkus/Valhalla LP12.
I have borrowed an LP12 with EKOS/Troika and Lingo from my ever helpful dealer for a week (next week the EKOS will be replaced by an ARO). Unfortunately, I am not convinced that I am getting the best out of this setup. Prior to installing this deck, my system was sounding really musical - fast, rythmic, funky and it really rocked, lots of PRAT and flat earthness.
With the loan deck there are improvements in terms of the level of detail retrieved, more space around instruments, more bass extention and detail and less confusion in difficult passages and these are all things that I want to get from an upgrade. Unfortunately, this is badly offset by huge drop in musicality: my feet no longer tap, I don't feel like bouncing around the room and the system doesn't rock at all - it's becom a hifi system rather than a music system and my nice flat world has become round.
I have experimented and improved things - the Lingo was initially plugged into my normal ring main because I feared polluting the current to my amps but it actually sounds better plugged into the dedicated supply. Unfortunately the Lingo cracks and pops in time to the fridge, freezer and central heating flue fan whichever circuit it's on. These have been switched off for serious listening (no difference in sound other than no more interference). The tracking weight suggested was 1.8g but this produced too much bass weight which made the mid band sound recessed and everything sound slow. I went down to 1.5g, through 1.6g and settled on 1.7g as the best compromise (what weight do all you Troika users use?). I have tried moving the Lingo around to get it further away from other electronics with little if any improvement.
Anyway I have now run out of ideas but I have a strong suspicion that the Lingo is the culprit for the loss of musicality - I went for a Lingo dem years ago but didn't go for it. Can anyone comment on the differences between Lingo and Valhalla in terms of flat/round earth qualities or suggest anything else I might try to get the best out of this setup. Everything else is the same as before - the amps (82/SC/250) were powered down for less than 2 hours over 48 hours ago, the stands were not moved as part of the installation, the only other thing I might be doing wrong is sitting the Lingo on the floor (is it important to get it on an isolation stand?).
I'm finding it difficult to believe that I prefer an Akito K9 to an Ekos/Troika (even though I don't think the K9 is a canine). Surely I must be doing something wrong - but what????
Thanks in advance
Steve
PS I know a lot of people will say get an ARO instead, as I said, that dem happens in a weeks time. I want to be impartial and get the best out of this particular setup first.
Posted on: 31 March 2001 by Martin Payne
Steve,
One thing to bear in mind about the upgraded deck, is that it will be producing much deeper bass, which can reveal room problems which make the sound seem to slow down.
I found that I didn't get on with the Lingo & sold it in favour of an Armageddon. Much more pace & snap. The Lingo really crushed my enjoyment of the LP12.
Are you going to be trying an Armageddon with the Aro dem?
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 01 April 2001 by kan man
Thanks chaps
Sproggle
I will experiment further with Lingo siting and will try and improvise some sort of support for it (no space on racks).
I use a pair of 2 tier Sound Org stands which I know from experience sound terrible (harsh and confused) when moved and take over a week to bed in and become musical although they are ok after 2-3 days. I was careful not to disturb them too much. Interesting thought though that you need to audition an entire system including stands. Will see what the dealer suggests.
My Kans are about 5cm from the wall and sit on posidrive screws through carpet into a wooden floor. It does sound as though they might be too close for this setup - I opted for reducing tracking force as a quicker and more immediate way of reducing bass since without another set of screws in place, the stands need a couple of days to settle and work properly. Might have to resort to this though.
keV
Don't think so but will ask my dealer. How do you check - is it obvious from external inspection? From what I've heard about the Trampolinn I don't want one !
Martin
Good point. I have experimented a lot with room acoustics (see my postings on the RFOS effect) which is why my system was sounding so good before. Now I have to deal with much more energy below 70 hz and my current room treatments may not be working for this. Any suggestions on the best way to attack low frequency room problems? My room is inherently live and I have treated it with damping in specific positions - damping the whole room didn't work.
Not sure whether the ARO dem will include Armageddon. I'm considering asking the dealer to swap the Lingo for a Valhalla which I do know is musical. I already have 2 new variables (arm and cartridge), I don't really want a third but sadly the days of dealers keeping hordes of different spec LP12's are long gone.
Cheers
Steve
[This message was edited by kan man on SUNDAY 01 April 2001 at 09:48.]
Posted on: 01 April 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
Steve,
To tell whether you have a Trampolinn fitted look at the feet under the deck.
If they are approx 30mm in diameter, with a knurled outer circumference you have a Tramp. The conventional feet are approx 10mm dia. and at the corners of the deck.
They are supported by a flexible membrane so pressing on a corner of the deck will allow the whole plinth to move, so you could try this as well.
Andy.
I personally use a Tramp as it allows the LP12 to work quite well on a wall shelf, but with other surfaces results may differ.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
Posted on: 01 April 2001 by kan man
Thanks Andrew
Just checked and it does have a Trampolinn fitted. I know my dealer suggests that excellent results can be had using the Trampolinn on an Audiotech wall shelf but I think the results on floor stands are less happy. Could this add to the lack of musicality that I am experiencing?
Cheers
Steve
Posted on: 01 April 2001 by keV
In my opinion, the Trampolinn is the worst thing Linn have ever done to the LP12 and I reckon it is probably the root cause of your problems.
In the extensive testing I did many years ago on Sound Organisation, Audiotech and Mana tables in three different systems, the Trampolinn was so much worse than the original feet and baseboard. (Better still use no baseboard at all, but be aware of electrical safety).
I cannot believe dealers are still peddling the **** that the Trampolinn is a good thing on anything but a heavy piece of furniture such as a sideboard. Linn brought it out when they were starting to move into Bang and Oulfsen territory and claiming that siting of their gear was unimportant.
Sorry to sound so mad but I really think the Trampolinn is that bad!!
Kevin
Posted on: 01 April 2001 by kan man
Thanks Sproggle & keV
I think I am going to get the arm and cartridge fitted to my own deck and proceed from there. At least I'm starting from a known quantity that I am very happy with. I'm only looking to upgrade because I'm greedy for more.
Cheers
Steve
Posted on: 02 April 2001 by Frank Abela
It's mainly the EKOS.
Fabulous dynamics, great resolution, brilliant frequency extremes, supremely well made, no music.
The Lingo is o..k.. provided the correct lead is use. It works pretty well with the ARO too, the more fluid, progressive nature of the ARO being allowed to come through.
The EKOS has better resolution and frequency extremes, but it just doesn't swing.
The Lingo has a pretty accurate sound - I prefer the swing of the Armageddon. The Lingo doesn't swing as much as a Valhalla, but it more than makes up for that in the lack of 'noise', transparency, accuracy and pace. So the main culprit is the EKOS I fear.
Regards,
Frank.
Posted on: 04 April 2001 by Will_Dias
I visisted Steve last night to experience his demo TT. I can confirm that there is something up with something. We played a number of tunes that had been spun a couple of weeks before on his LP12/Akito/K9 and which, at the time, had all present boogying on the sofa (not a pretty sight).
There was lots of extra hi-fi stuff being presented, and which could be appreciated, but the music just 'plodded' (a word that was oft repeated during the evening). It was as though the musicians had been roused in the middle of the night and told to play the song before they were properly awake.
On tracks that are less demanding of PRaT qualities (e.g. Pearl Fishermen, All About Eve) there were lots of nice sounds (guitars and female vocals), and lots of separation, space, and other such gubbins, but even this was spoiled somewhat by a shouty quality to the vocals. Little Feat's "Gringo" was great, but this is a really hard track to mess up. Anything heavier and it seemed like the rhythm section were having trouble keeping up with everybody else.
There was nothing there that would have made me want to spend my wad on this upgrade, even from my own P3/10X4! Don't misunderstand me, I could hear that the Ekos/Troika was sonically far superior, but I wasn't really having any fun, and neither, it seemed, were the musicians being portrayed. Is this what they mean by serious hi-fi? ;-)
I am convinced that there is a problem somewhere, I am not qualified to identify it. I do think that removal of the lingo and the trampolinn from the setup would at least reduce the number of variables, and eliminate items that are not being considered for purchase from the equation.
Bill.
