Bach - Violin Music on Guitar?

droodie,

yes, have this as well as his transcribed cd of haydn pieces. incredible. the man is not just a guitarist, but designed and constructed a special cello-like instrument that's essentially an 8-string guitar, AND transcribed all these pieces for his special guitar. i listen to these records all the time. galbraith's musicianship is impeccable. even while the whole thing is a bit gimmicky, it works and works well. i would buy these immediately.

I think that Segovia was the first to transcribe Bach's violin pieces for the guitar. There is (or was) a DG CD given over to his recordings of these.

Bach transcribed the work of other composers (Vivaldi violin to harpsichord for example)so why not transcribe Bach violin to guitar? I doubt Bach would have minded. I would buy the Galbraith in a second.

I ordered it earlier today, and am looking forward to hearing it at the weekend (which may also see me with a new Quadraspire rack).

Bach often goes rather well on the guitar. As Graham suggests Segovia pioneered this, and a couple of months ago I was lucky enough to have access to some LP transfers [from HMV 78s done in the 20s and 30s] of him playing, among other things, his Bach arrangements. I don't suppose such things appeal any less to many purists than guitar fans in many cases. They are fantastic in my view.

One of the most memorable performances of the Third Bandenburg Concerto that I ever heard [on Radio Three many years ago] was played on three guitars by Los Romeros [brothers] and they got it just beautiful, clear, and appropriately energetic! I wonder if that was a commercial recording or a BBC studio recording. I cannot remember.

ATB from Fredrik

I bought a disc recently called Scarborough Fair: Folk Songs for Tenor (Regis RRC 1112). A superb disc, and in the middle of it was a guitar transcription of Peter Maxwell Davis' "Return to Stromness". Surprised me, but I do enjoy it.

I've been meaning for a while to get a guitar version of the goldbergs, as (given some of the harpsichord registrations I've heard), I think it could work wonderfully.

However, if you want to hear this music really pulled about, Uri Caine's treatment is always worth a listen.

regards, Tam

Hmm, I'll dig out my Segovia set - I'm fairly sure it includes a CD of bach transcriptions. I listened to guitar versions of the four lute suites today - played by a Greek woman, whose name escapes me - and thoroughly enjoyed them.

The Uri Caine Goldbergs sound like a hoot - some of the enraged reviews on amazon.com are laugh out loud funny. Looks like another one to investigate.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Bach often goes rather well on the guitar. As Graham suggests Segovia pioneered this, and a couple of months ago I was lucky enough to have access to some LP transfers [from HMV 78s done in the 20s and 30s] of him playing, among other things, his Bach arrangements. I don't suppose such things appeal any less to many purists than guitar fans in many cases. They are fantastic in my view.

One of the most memorable performances of the Third Bandenburg Concerto that I ever heard [on Radio Three many years ago] was played on three guitars by Los Romeros [brothers] and they got it just beautiful, clear, and appropriately energetic! I wonder if that was a commercial recording or a BBC studio recording. I cannot remember.

ATB from Fredrik

Interesting that Segovias famous libertys with Bach are no problem for you,yet Glenn Gould sends you into a fit of ear covering

bad boy, we talk about the music here, d'ya have something to say about that? rgds.

Dear Dan Boy!

I have never worried nearly so much about what instrument is used as how musically it is played.

In the case of Glenn Gould's latest release of the Goldbergs, apparently a "machine" [correctly called a player piano] is employed in preference to employing a living artist, which strikes me as a move towards the begining of the end in music!

I don't think I have mentioned the "title named" artists directly here or on the other Bach thread that is current before this post, though my view tends to be, "If you cannot say anything nice, say the least possible." A search in the Archives will reveal several threads on this where my position is made clear. If I have point of controversy or negative reaction to this or that I ususally only post about it in response to questioning. The most discursive Thread on Gould's Bach was this one, linked below, in which I made a [rare]humourous comment at the begining which caused a very big Hoohah!

Goldberg Variations.

It was a very long Thread, and certainly a difficult read, but in it are discussed and debated a lot of factual details about the Goldbergs, and Baroque style, whether on the piano or the harpsichord. Unfortunately to get the idea you would need to read all ten pages of posts!

Your sincerely, Fredrik

PS: I know this is a Bach Guitar Thread but I felt it would be polite to answer Dan's point. Apologies for off topic intervention.

I am clearly not refering to the instrument,Segovia is well known to play it his way and not just with Bach,does not bother you, but with Gould it does,WHY?

Dear Dan,

I don't think anyone is imagining that Segovia's "Bach Transcriptions for Guitar" are any more truly pure Bach than the "Transcriptions for Jazz Band" of Jacques Loussier. I enjoy both Segovia, and Loussier when they take Bach as a basis. They are stunningly stylish on times! I quite like it when I hear a pop song that bases itself on a Bach theme as well!

My problem with Gould is how it is that his playing is great Bach musicianship, when it so blatantly avoids any attempt at a realisation of what Bach intended, by completely avoiding any sense that the phrase or even longer term architecture, is observed in a style that is known to be Bachian, and has been researched from the middle of the nineteenth century. If you really want to go into Historically Informed Performance Practice - HIP as it often called - then it is time for you to start a Thread to which I shall be glad to contribute to any questions raised.

Never-the-less, I realise some love Gould's Bach which in my view is splendid for those who do [!], but I do expect to be questioned if I post about my love of something that is controversial! Gould is very controversial, and a debate will always follow in his case. It is not only I who finds Gould more a Gouldian, than a Bachian!

Yours sincerely Fredrik

Fredrick,

Segovia's performance of the lute suites require little in the way of transcription,as if from violin.

These by your HIP yardstick are laughable,yet you enjoy them,but the far greater artist Gould you find unbearable to listen to.

I dont buy anything other than prejudice.
I note you lump together Segovia and Lousier with pop music.

Regards Dan

Dear Dan,

I did not get where I am today, without... to paraphrase CJ in Reg Perrin!

Did I say I enjoyed what you style "the lute suites" presumably of old Bach? What instrumant these were intended for is open to question in any case. According to the Lutenist Lisveland, only one is strickly playable on the Lute at all, and the rest, it seems a reasonable speculation to make, were designed for the harpsichord-like, Lauten-werke, and they are thus easily playble.

The sides of 78 transfered no such "lute suites" played by Segovia, but the works that are arranged from Bach - please don't ask for a list, though I could find out in extremis - sit among both other transcriptions of works by others than Bach, and original works, and in my view show Segovia as one of the great musicians on any instrument.

As for Loussier, he was one of the great musicians also. Perhaps both their efforts in Bach arrangements are in dubious taste, but neither makes any claim to authenticity. Thus no one is hood-winked into thinking that "This is Bach!" The risk with Gould is that his wild tempo and articulation eccentricities might well be taken as real Bach. That is my arguement here.

Finally you say that I "lump together Segovia and Lousier with pop music." Where?


Y S, Fredrik

It's funny that this issue should come up! I listened to some Segovia Bach transcriptions after viewing this thread last night. I was struck by how un-Bachian they sounded, and was thinking of asking the same question as bad boy dan - though I would have phrased it less provocatively!

I'm not sure what claims Gould makes for the authenticity of his approach, but this eems to be the crux of the matter, if I've understood Frederik correctly. Personally, I'm happy to take his Goldbergs as a "Glenn Gould production, inspired by Bach" and enjoy them (very much) on that basis, whatever Gould or anyone else says about authenticity.

BTW, I *enjoyed* the Segovia, too!

Dear Droo!

I enjoyed the Segovia for his completely individual take, as I do Loussier's efforts! I like more music than only than Bach. With Gould I find it unlike Bach as well, but I don't care for its spikiness, it harshness of soul etc, IMO!

I enjoy one or two things from Metallica as well!

I dislike some things from Frank Sinatra, but not all. In other words it is entirely personal. What gets me is when people say that Gould was the Greatest Bach Keyboard player, which is simply not right on any level, though he may have been the most gifted keyboard player to work on Bach, but that is different thing!

ATB from Fredrik

Fair enough. It is permissible to like music other than Bach - provided, of course, one has the appropriate licence

I'm very fond of Loussier (and very grateful to Radio 3's Bach programmes a while back for introducing me to him). I have a wonderful recording of the 5th Brandenburg from him that I absolutely treasure. Of course, it is a long way removed from Bach in the pure sense, but I find it wonderfully refreshing and a good example of just what you can achieve by transforming great music.

Much the same could be said of Uri Caine though his approach is far more extreme - his Golbergs are eccentrically scored (and include voices, poetry, electric instruments and more). Certainly not for purists, but I enjoy it none the less (though I can easily hear why some would loath it, in a way I struggle to with Loussier). Actually, Caine's most successful disc, in my view, is his Wagner which has a much smaller ensemble, is purely instrumental and is almost Wagner meets Loussier.

Gould is another matter. I find his quirks, and his vocalisations off-putting. But some of his stuff I quite like: the 81 Goldbergs, and (to a lesser extent the earlier ones), on the other hand, I struggle with his Well Tempered. However, an artist like Gould is always going to be polarising - certainly I think it's difficult to be indifferent to him, and I can see what it is that people like (even if I don't always agree with it).

I think the Walchas and the Goulds, the Caines and the Loussiers only go to highlight the greatness of Bach's writing by showing just how many different views there are to be had on his art. Indeed, this variety is one of the things I love about classical music and, as I've said before, it would be terribly boring if we all liked the same things.

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

Considering the popularising effect for Bach's music of the work of people like Casals, Segovia, Woldike, Adolf Busch, Cortot, Dolmetsch, Henry Wood [Klonowsky was his arranger's pseudonym], Elgar, Stokowsky, Mahler, and other early twentieth century performers and arrangers of Bach's works for the concert platform, it is quite important to consider the time of this work. By Gould's time there was no need to guild the lily! But in the nineteenth century only Brahms and Mendelsohnn were bringing Bach's works forward, and the way to get this great music to a public in the concert conditions of the day required the music on times to be be re-taylored to fit!

Some of these pioneering efforts stand the test of time better than others, perhaps particularly Busoni's piano transcritions, and Elgar's performing edition [with Ivor Atkins] of the Saint Matthew Passion, as serious works in their own right. The affectionate clinging on to these pioneering efforts is not to be ridiculed, but it certainly needs to be examined and questioned in my view!

ATB from Fredrik

... [questioned in my view], in light of the fact that our performing conditions are in many way much nearer to ideal nowadays, and recordings allow for this even more. And that the musicological work first brought out practical ways of playing with suitable sized forces [Adolf Busch, Alfred Cortot, Morgens Woldike, and Edwin Fischer among others] and using the correct instruments [August Wenzinger, Helmut Walcha, Gustav Leonhardt, and Nicholaus Harnoncourt and others] as well as the implementation of correct style and "gracing", has rendered much as being hopelessly unstylish and anachronistic. Thus it makes a good deal of sense to periodically examine the older styles and see if something better has come along. In Bach it has to a very large degree, though not every HIP performance avoids serious pitfalls either, of course...

ATB from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

I agree with some of that. However, I'm not sure Gould was really about popularising the music and so in that sense shouldn't really have been lumped in with Caine and Loussier, which wasn't really my intention. I would more say that he simply has a different take on the work and there is place for it.

As far as HIP goes I am, the harpsichord excepted, becoming increasingly against the movement. I prefer a Giulini recording of the B minor Mass to Gardiner's, or Furtwangler's Beethoven to Harnoncourt. That's not to say there aren't wonderful exponents of HIP - Charles Mackerras, for example. The problem I tend to find is that for some it seems to be more than simply another tool with which to approach the music and almost a fanatical thing (I'm thinking particularly of, say, Norrington here).

Actually, I just bought another box of Furtwangler recordings (issued by DG to commemorate the 50th anniversary of his death) which includes a lovely recording of the 3rd suite in D BWV1068 with the Berlin Phil from 1948 (there are number of other rather fine post-war recordings in there).

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Dear Fredrik,

I agree with some of that. However, I'm not sure Gould was really about popularising the music and so in that sense shouldn't really have been lumped in with Caine and Loussier, which wasn't really my intention. I would more say that he simply has a different take on the work and there is place for it.

... regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

There is a place for Gould's Bach I am sure, but that place is not on my gramophome! [Smiley] I did explain why earlier in the Thread, and also that I was pleased enough for others who enjoy his style!

As for the HIP movement, some of its most hyped exponents are not my cup of tea either, but there are some really fine musicians in it. I have always enjoyed the work of Pinnock, and the Kujiken brothers in Bach, and the Leonhardt recordings of the Mass In B Minor and Saint Matthew Passion.

I am not sure that the HIP movement is any less well stocked with great musicians than the modern instrument movement! Neither is perhaps in as good heart as they were a few years ago!

ATB from Fredrik

I too like Pinnock, I'm not sure I know Leonhardt, there are certainly other great names in the HIP. I suppose what I would suggest is that, at least in the last couple of years, it has been hijacked (or at least dominated) by a more militant and vocal element.

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

In terms of gramophone recording, there is certainly a certain desperation with declining sales of music especially on CD. No doubt the high profile and and eccentric stand some chance of picquing interest [and make a sale] but things will settle down again. The Hilliards, MacKerras, Hickox, The Sixteen, and others are still ploughing a valid course, though I am struggling to see why Andrew Manze gets the plaudits he does, when there is such a lovely musician as Racheal Podger quietly releasing recordings and giving public concerts that really arre great! [Ironically the latest "re-perfomance" using a player piano of Gould's 1981 Goldbergs set is an example of a reaction to this desperation: Media Hype, and then curiosity alone about the result, may lead to increased sales...].

I have recently been given some very modern recordings of Bach Violin and Keyboards Sonatas and also Handel Harpsichord Suites that are simply superb! I am forced to rely on gifts like this all too often these days, so progress is slow, and the temptation to retrench considerable!

In a week or two when I have more fully digested them, I shall post about them.

ATB from Fredrik