Emotion and Naim

John

Do you know anothet manufacturer that gives it all ?

Arye

[This message was edited by Arye_Gur on SUNDAY 21 October 2001 at 22:09.]

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1. Naim are great in involving the listener in the music he listens to.
2. Naim are great because they free the owner of taking care to all the needed components like interconectors etc'.
3. Naim are great in keeping the value of used components when you wish to upgrade.
Do you know anothet manufacturer that gives it all ?

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For another manufacturer who can rival Naim in all three and is at least an equal in sound quality terms, what about DNM?

1. DNM are a rival for DNM in the involvement stakes; I don't think anyone who has heard them would argue otherwise. In fact, to my ears it is a more involving sound but then that's just my own preferences;
2. They make their own interconnects and cables, which are really quite good and very inexpensive, plus their own stand which I haven't seen;
3. This is where DNM beat Naim hands down - if I buy a £2000 preamp, say, and keep it for 5 years and then wish to upgrade to say a £5000 preamp, I only have to pay the £3000 difference plus a small handling fee (£100) for shipping and admin. This is my plan with the £1800 3B Primus, which is now to be sold as their 'Start' line. In 2 years I will move to their 3D Twin (£3500?) or 3D Six (£5500?) preamp. Therefore no depreciation. Of course, if you want to swap brands then of course this doesn't apply.

So you see, Naim aren't necessarily the only option to which you criteria apply. A lot of hifi holds its value better than you'd think - or can be had for a 'stable' secondhand price, such as the £400-800ish LP12. In terms of involvement, Naim are of course a good brand, but I've heard the same about Lavardin, Densen, Exposure, the DNM series, even Rega!

So the notion of a best is of course a silly concept. It goes without saying that if one comes to the Naim forum one should expect a fairly biased view from at least a significant proportion of the members - and there's nothing really wrong with that, it's something that the non-Naim owners amongst us have to accept (and my own continued presence here goes a way to showing that things here are often balanced enough, otherwise I'd have gone somewhere else)

But there are many viable alternatives, some less easily demo'd I grant you, but they are there. Naim in some respects is an easy choice, as it's well known and regarded, but if you (as I did) find that it doesn't suit your tastes, then do not dispair because there are other brands which can also do the things that Naim does well.

Just my pre-breakfast thoughts...

John

Arye

Very artficially enhanced transients and a lack of bass character. Timing was pretty good though and certainly not anywhere near as bad as some. Tiring though with the wrong material. I can see why some describe them as dynamic, but it's not realistic to my ears.

I heard a Dynavector L100 though that has every bit of the Naim character, cohesive, musical, emotionally involving and much better than the 32.5 / Supercap we compared it with (not maybe the best combination of resources, but that's another story, yet to be told).

This has certainly stirred my interest when it comes to upgrading this part of my system. Even more amazing it has a self-contained PSU (one less bloody box to find a home for)!

Naim are excellent, and have all the attributes you mention, but there are other brands that can provide musical involvement.

As a package though, factoring in after-sales, support etc. Naim are a hard act to beat.

It all depends on your own personal preferences.

Andy.

In the context of my own system... well, let's put it this way, it humbled the 82/?C/250/CDX/XPS etc... that I heard on Saturday in every way. To my ears. I found the Naim very enjoyable, but very forced, enhancing what wasn't really there (leading edges sounded brittle, almost crystalline) whereas the DNM pre-amps sound organic and full of timbre...

Ah well, different demos, different times, different dealers and systems... just goes to show...

John

Well, CDX aside for now, concentrating on amps.

By my reckoning that's £2k for the 82, dunno how much for the ?cap, £2k for the 250. It's up against a pair of Crimson 200w monoblocks at £1400 coupled to a DNM 3B Primus at £2000. Possibly not that far apart in fairness. Of course, I have the advantage of Mana which may be what's tipping the balance in my favour

John

Sorry, missed a bit there. I meant to say that I had been unimpressed with a similar setup in the past, except in the context of a CD5/HC demo. It was nice, and I enjoyed it, but felt I could do better for less money for my own personal tastes.

The 82 setup I heard at the weekend did sound pretty darned good, though, although I'd still take my own system over it 100 times out of 100.

I'm arranging a demo of a 52/SC (I think it's a supercap - correct me if I'm wrong about that) just to finally hear one. The 52 was never an option for me (too much cash) but it would be interesting to hear by how much it improves on the 82 I heard. More importantly, I'll see if they've got a 3C Six to demo it up against. That's if they're game... one of the dealers thinks the Naim setup would have the edge, the other strongly disagrees, leaving me simply curious, as neither preamp are within my price range...

Anyway, can't remember what I was going to say so see ya later...

John

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My car cost me more new (just) but was worth a lot less the second I drove it out of the showroom

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If ever there was a convincing argument for not buying a new car, it's there

Think how much Naim you could buy with the money saved from beating the residuals game!

Most people seem to forget that most of the running expenses of a car are in residuals - keep it for long enough and it's sensible, but replace it after a couple of years and then it hurts a lot.

Andy (whose car only cost a little bit more than his 5 series kit!).

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I suspect that perhaps DNM and Naim don't work well together...

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My suspicion too, since I have no reason not to believe your judgement.

It was very 'impressive' but forced the leading edges of notes and percussive effects severely. Exciting, but artificial and ultimately tiring.

It also lacked note shape at the bass end of the spectrum - there was bass, but it was harder to tell what was being played or how it was played.

It's a little unfair to compare outside of a full DNM system though, but not a viable preamp for a 250 in the system I heard.

Andy.

John, don't you think this policy is reflected in the retail price? Benz offers a similar policy on its cartidges (and Van den Hul retips any model for $500). Jonathon Carr of Scan Tech says the reason is that the markups are much higher than that of a Lyra (where a retip is about 2/3 of the original retail price). He says the cost to make a Lydian is equivalent to a $2500 cartridge from Benz.

Also you have to assume that DNM is in business in the future which is less of a good bet than Naim. Plus it is much easier to buy Naim used than DNM.

--Eri

DNM have been around for a long time and I have no worries there. In any case, the company makes probably more money from it's patented capacitors and so on than from hifi (although I am only guessing at this) as their T-network and slit-foil caps are of military as well as audio application (according to the bumf). I have no doubt they will be around for some time to come, despite the way their amps look

In any case, who's to say Naim will be around in ten years? I've seen far far bigger companies than Naim go to the wall against the odds. Banks have collapsed, even big companies like Dell are in trouble... you never can tell.

In some ways the smaller cottage industry manufacturers represent a safer bet as you can be sure that the talented individuals and their dogs who run them will be back, even if it's as another company - hard to keep talent like that down...

John

What with the fantastic service we offer as well as our products. I think you have sampled both!

The loyalty Naim owners seem to have to their brands is second to none, however, although Mana is up there too

As Mick Parry would say, like Leica cameras, there are some products which sell themselves. But then I'm a Carl Zeiss man myself...

John

PS. I didn't mean any offense - I was just saying that one never knows what tomorrow might bring. Good to hear from you, anyway...

no not a problem just having a grin!