beethoven

Terry,
Please scroll down to George's thread on Klemperer's Beethoven. You will get lots of opinions there.
I intend (unless I change my mind) to keep two sets of the five or six I presently own, Mackerras with the RLPO and Klemperer's stereo set of the symphonies and piano concertos.
Regards,
Ken

Hello Terry,

Below, not the very best version available, but still a whole biscuit tin full of fun listerning, and a great purchase at around a fiver! : )

nymph



http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000JMK6G2/sr=1-2/qi...27624&sr=1-2&seller=

Like Ken, I don't believe you can go wrong with Mackerras/RLPO (and it's so cheap that it hardly matters if you don't get on with it - though I've never heard of anyone having that problem). His SCO set is also good - but see the discussion on the threat Ken mentions.

I'd also put in a word for Jochum - his first cycle (with the Berlin Phil and the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, on DG) is extremely satisfying. For a heavy (and Klemperer like approach) Davis in Dresden, on Philips is also excellent.

However, I would go for Mackerras/RLPO, use that to decide which works you might like to explore further, and then come back here for more recommendations.

regards, Tam

thanks too all replied tel

Beethoven Symphonies, John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.

clear, luminous performances on original instruments. Beethoven as he would have preferred it. Stunning technique and insightful interpertation.

and the recording is perfect, with an exceptional clarity.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Beethoven Symphonies, John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.

clear, luminous performances on original instruments. Beethoven as he would have preferred it. Stunning technique and insightful interpertation.

and the recording is perfect, with an exceptional clarity.

Mike,
They may be original instruments, but are they of Beethoven's time? Jos Van Immerseel points out that many "original instrument" recordings use instruments from Bach's era, and that these were very different from those of Beethoven's time.
And who knows what Beethoven would have preferred?
Regards,
Ken

Here is a quote from the Amazon website, a review of Gardiner's cycle:

quote:

when some of the most dramatic statements in the history of music and art are belittled by the assertiveness of pedantic musicology (acting here as a substitute for deep artistic feeling and understanding), the outcome can only be disappointment; and disappointment it is.
I am assigning 1 star, only because 0 is not contemplated in the Amazon rating. Gardiner shares with Norrington the honour of the worst Beethoven cycle ever put to disc.

One man's meat...

the instruments are original to beethoven's time, as far as i can determine.

as far as amazon reviews go, i prefer to trust my own ears.

also from amazon :

Sir John Eliot Gardiner and his period-instrument forces have brushed these works clean of cobwebs, such that they sound fresh, clean and in line with what Beethoven would have wanted us to experience. To be sure, some listeners who favour the anodyne Karajanesque or Furtwangleresque approach applied to these works would be upset with the fast speeds, but these readings hardly sound wooden and mechanical. Rather, open-hearted listeners can find that Sir John shapes the music and allows articulate detail to mingle with the emotions in these works, helped by DG's transparent and luminous 4-D audio recording.

As Ken says, to say Beethoven would have preferred period instruments to modern ones is impossible - one has no idea. My view on the subject is that there's a reason why modern instruments have replaced period ones and in general I've not heard any performances that have dissuaded me of that (there are one or two exceptions - such as Bach on the harpsichord versus the piano, but there are specific mechanical reasons for that which have been explored at length in some of George's threads).

Of course, these days, I would have thought the majority Beethoven performance is more 'historically informed' that the likes of Klemperer or Furtwangler (though personally I would take either to my desert island before Gardiner's cycle). The Mackerras cycle is a case in point. Mackerras, who was learning lessons from period performance long before it became trendy with the likes of Gardiner and Norrington, recorded the Liverpool cycle with Jonathan Del Mar's recent edition of the symphonies (indeed, his cycle was the first to do so). He also writes a fascinating liner note regarding tempi in the 9th symphony and stating his intention to return to speeds in keeping with what Beethoven wanted as opposed to Wagner's view of the work.

For me, too often, Gardiner falls into the same crowd as Norrington - namely historical accuracy is all (always a nebulous thing anyway, since for most of the symphonies we don't know the exact forces Beethoven used when he played them, that there are some metronome markings in the 9th that are almost certainly mistakes), to the extent that they lose sight of the drama of a good performance. Of course, sometimes he's just perverse (the insistence on using natural horns for his recent Brahms despite the evidence that the symphonies were written for more advanced instruments).

That said I don't at all think it is the worst set on disc (I find much more to like here than was the case with Rattle who bored me to tears), there are some good points to the cycle - the 4th symphony is one of my favourite recordings of work, on the other hander there is a serious lack of power in the 9th.

DG may slap '4-D' or some other meaningless marketing as to the technical fidelity of the discs, and while they are possibly better than the EMI Mackerras discs, I wouldn't have said they are anything to write home about in this regard.


regards, Tam

this forum is a bad place to get reasonable recommendations about beethoven.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
this forum is a bad place to get reasonable recommendations about beethoven.

I take it by 'reasonable' you mean ones that agree with you entirely

One of the things I love about Classical music is the passionate debate that ensues between other lovers. Carry on chaps I'm learning so much I must investigate Sir Johns interpretations .



Dean..

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
this forum is a bad place to get reasonable recommendations about beethoven.

I take it by 'reasonable' you mean ones that agree with you entirely

May I say, Tam, that I agree completely with you about the Mackerras and Klemperer sets, and that I am grateful for your recommendation of the Mackerras Liverpool set, which I probably never would have investigated without your words about it.
Regards,

Performing Beethoven (Cambridge Studies in Performance Practice) (Hardcover)
by Robin Stowell (Editor)

As a child Beethoven was "the number one" composer for me. So much so that by thirteen years old I had already got LPs of all nine symphonies and the third, forth and fifth piano concertos.

Since then no other collection of orchestral music has seen a greater change-over of performances i my library of recordings, through Carl Boehm, some Herbert von Karajan, Erich and Carlos Kleiber, Carl Schurich [sic], Adrian Boult, Thomas Beecham, Arturo Toscanini, Rudolf Kempe, and others including much from Wilhelm Furtwangler, but one that was there from the start was Otto Klemperer. I am not going to comment on those either rejected or never liked, but the big EMI set of the nine symphonies and five piano concertos from Klemperer remains not only fine value for money, but one of the greatest achievements for the gramophone yet managed. To be set as a benchmark, and not as a sole recommendation IMHO.

Heavens, I appear to have posted, despite resigning from the Forum three weeks ago. Sorry, but it cannot be ignored: This wish to share in musical discussion! Just don't ask me about Hifi. I don't understand it, and have stopped worrying about it!

ATB from George

:-)

the problem with recommending a set of beethoven symphonies is that so many sets have something to recommend them.

I have stokowski/london (partial)
reiner/chicago (partial)
szell/cleveland (partial)
guilini/chicago-new philharmonia (partial)
solti/chicago (partial)
toscanini/nbc sym.
toscanini/NYPhil (partial)
karajan/berlin (partial)
jochum/concertgebouw

in addition to the period instrument set.

there is something to recommend each of these,
and i'm sure there are many other sets that
deserve a listen.

and keeping a set of dover scores at hand isn't a bad idea either.

Good to see you back George, how about giving Mikeeschman your thoughts on the Abbado Brahms while you're here:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/6702996617


Mikeeschman - I like the Jochum/Concertgebouw set but I think his earlier DG set (split between mono/stereo and the BPO and Bavarian orchestras) is fresher and more satisfying. His final set, from the late 70s with the LSO has some fine point too - a wonderful sense of grandeur to the eroica and a blisteringly powerful 9th (which is let down only by a somewhat constraining recording).

It's worth noting that Szell/Cleveland is a complete cycle (last available as part of sony's Original Jacket series) and very fine it is too. Solti Chicago is also interesting, though I find it tells more about Solti than it does about Beethoven. That said, I wouldn't want to be without his intensely driven reading of the 5th.

The truth is that no one set will come close to revealing all, but it's worth buying one to help guide further explorations.

regards, Tam

30 second samples:
http://ed2.elusivedisc.net/audioclips/jmcxr-0020/01.mp3
http://ed2.elusivedisc.net/audioclips/jmcxr-0020/02.mp3
http://ed2.elusivedisc.net/audioclips/jmcxr-0020/03.mp3
http://ed2.elusivedisc.net/audioclips/jmcxr-0020/04.mp3
http://ed2.elusivedisc.net/audioclips/jmcxr-0020/05.mp3

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:


Heavens, I appear to have posted, despite resigning from the Forum three weeks ago. Sorry, but it cannot be ignored: This wish to share in musical discussion! Just don't ask me about Hifi. I don't understand it, and have stopped worrying about it!

ATB from George

Dear George,

fine that you are back . I missed you badly during the last weeks.

Back to LvB:
What do you think about Leibowitz with the RPO? His recordings are imo excellent and Wand with the NDR-Sinfonieorchester is not bad either.

Best wishes

Manfred

Dear Manni,

I don't know the Leibowitz performances at all, but Wand was quite prominent in London music making a few years ago with the BBC SO, and I always used to make a point of listening to his concerts on the radio. There was once a performance of Schubert's Great C major, which I have never forgotten. No doubt the BBC will raid the archives one day and release it on CD. I think it was that good!

On the other hand I never did investigate the Wand commercial recordings, partly because they were expensive at one time.

I hope they will allow me back in here in the Music Room [in spite of trying to resign], as I have alot to learn yet!

Best wishes from George

SOME FINAL THOUGHTS ON THE GARDINER BEETHOVEN CYCLE

Over the past two days, my wife and i have listened to symphonies 7,8 and 9 in this cycle.
in fact, the 9th symphony got three listens, the last of these with the benefit of a dover score.

i would like to share some impressions.

here in new orleans, there is an old saying among musicians of every stripe :

"first, make it in tune and on time."

let me explain this.

the rhythmic pulse, aka "the beat", is an unvarying constant like a ticking clock. you can play behind it, on it or ahead of it - but you never let go of it. Having done that, you can claim to be "on time".

a player can be flat or sharp (above or below the intended pitch). beyond that, a player
can be on the pitch yet still allow an overtone to drift high or low. if that player is on pitch, and he doesn't allow the overtones to drift, he can claim to be "in tune".

being in tune and on time gets exponentially more difficult as you add players.

we have about 2,000 recordings - on maybe 200 of those, the musicians are in tune and on time. those are the recordings that get most of the airtime in this household.

The Orchestre Revolutionaire et Romantique is unfailingly in tune and on time.

This had a dramatic impact on what we heard in the 9th symphony. The harmonic structure of the piece leaped out at us in ways neither of us had experienced. we pencil marked the score whenever this occurred , and will bang those parts out on the piano this weekend in an attempt to understand these new bits of the 9th :-) The flawless rhythm gave the harmonic structure of the 9th a forward momentum new to my experience.

The period strings have a small, sometimes almost nasal quality, that is still astonishingly clear. As a consequence of this tonality and their in-tuneness, you can hear everything you see in the score :-)

The horn playing is beautiful, and the period instrument leaps out and makes you pay attention.

The timpani are incisive, not as round as a modern instrument. It seems to make them more effective in propelling the beat.

It made me feel new.

We just have to rediscover the 9th, a piece we have heard dozens of times.

so this recording made us feel new - i am happy - and that is what we are both always on the lookout for.

One last note - the tempos are bat out of hell. Imagine playing music of Beethoven, a paragon of tranquility and patience, like a bat out of hell :-) One effect of this is that cello and bass lines that accent strong beats
actually propel and lift the melodic lines instead of just laying there.

So for the moment, this is my favorite set.

quote:

Just don't ask me about Hifi. I don't understand it, and have stopped worrying about it!

George you're back!!

I know what you mean. Just recently I am finally starting to recognize and appreciate counterpoint in the jazz recordings I have. How it sounds, whether it plays a tune has rhythmic grip or is pitch accurate suddenly doesn't seem so relevant.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
the problem with recommending a set of beethoven symphonies is that so many sets have something to recommend them.

I have stokowski/london (partial)
reiner/chicago (partial)
szell/cleveland (partial)
guilini/chicago-new philharmonia (partial)
solti/chicago (partial)
toscanini/nbc sym.
toscanini/NYPhil (partial)
karajan/berlin (partial)
jochum/concertgebouw

in addition to the period instrument set.

there is something to recommend each of these,
and i'm sure there are many other sets that
deserve a listen.

and keeping a set of dover scores at hand isn't a bad idea either.

I wonder which of these you consider the most 'on time and in tune'. Szell, of course. Toscanini was certainly on time and he had a great orchestra (NBC). What about Stokowski ? Not so much, I would think.


Noyes