Bass question for GFFJ

No, what we would reasonably recognise as the modern double bass was certainly in use in the time of Handel in England, though it does seem that Purcell never wrote a bass-line that would [in his time] be played on the modern double bass, or even a Violone for that matter.

The modern double bass came from the Violone [or double bass viol - the single bass viol was the viola da gamba and is cello sized], and the violone finds its roots in the other even older instruments including the rebec. This ancestry may be seen in the instruments of the type made in Italy from certainly the late 1500s onwards.

For example I had a double bass which was dimensionally at least a copy of a 1666 Violone made by Maggini, and which in its original form was set up as the old multi-string baroque instrument rather than the modern three, four or five string double bass. Violones had various string set ups with a minimum of five strings, many six stringers, and it seems possible some with even seven strings ... They tend to be wider between the f holes than most three or four string modern double basses.

The Violone may very well be considered to have survived in the German speaking world until the time certainly of Mozart, and the Trout Quintet [by Schubert] demands the use of a five stringed double bass, or Violone, capable of playing an octave below the cello bottom "C." Almost certainly this instrument would have had far more in common with the violone style of double bass instrument that Bach would have recognised, than the modern five string double bass which first appeared in Germany in the 1890s, and with a modern high action and the very heary strings of our modern instrument which mark the two main departures from the old Violone.

In England the old Violone rapidly lost its multi-string set-up even in the time of Handel, where the normal three string double bass really evolved for the first time, which heavy strings and a set up designed to project in the public music making of the theatre and later the symphonic concerts such as would be given under Salomon, including Haydn's Concerts with his "London" Symphonies in the 1790s. The modern three string bass was the standard instrument in England till 1914.

After 1918 four strings became accepted in England as the standard and by the late 1920s there were a few new German style five stringers appearing.

Verdi attempted to bring the four string bass [as opposed to thre standard three string instrument used in Italy as in England] by writing lines for the instrument that wemnt down to the low "E," whist Mahler and Richard Strauss would soon cement the position in the German [speaking] orchestras of the new five string double bass by writing lines down to the low "C" which most of the old baroque [Bach time] Violones would have been able to play, though probably most of these were usually tuned down to the low "D," one whole tone higher, unless the music called for the low "C" in significant ways [as the Saint Matthew Passion does, but the B Minor Mass does not].

I even owned a London made double bass from 1770 or 1780, dated partly by the details of the wood used.

ATB from George

PS: I will hunt out some links.

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...552960817#2552960817

On my old London bass, posted in the Padded Cell.

And a rather nice little thread, which should bring a few smiles ...

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...112957617#4112957617

ATB from George

Thanks George, I may have missed the basses in the Haydn programme,as they did play some excerpts from the London symphonies.
I assume they would have been played standing?

Dear Howard

Bass players sometimes stand [as they definately do in Vienna] or sometimes sit on very high stools, which really are the same hieght at the seat in many cases, as the would be if the person were actually standing, so unless you look carefully you might take the player for standing up in any case.



From this photo found on Google putting in LPO bass section, it is quite possible to wonder if they are seated or standing.

In fact if it were the LPO bass section they would be seated.

All through the history of the bass some players sat and some stood.

Here is a photo of the VPO showing the half dozen or so players standing with their instruments right at the back under the organ case.



The bass is the least standardised of all the modern orchestral instruments and the different national styles of playing still exist, and specifically there are two sorts of bow - the German and the French, which are comepletely different not only in look but to some extent they actual result they get as well.

German double bass bow:



The difference:



The French bow in use:



The French bow:



An finally the German under-arm bow hold:



The French style of playing appears similar to that of the technique of the cello, which is a true violin rather than a viol as the double bass actually is.

The German style is derived from a certain school of viol playing as far as anyone can tell!

ATB from George

Thanks for the info. I often watch the bass players, I think they go unrecognized sometimes.
I never knew they stood. I've only seen sitters!

Thanks,George, for your informative survey, which I have read with great interest.

Dear Poul,

No comment to you does not mean no learning or no enjoyment from the big French Beethoven set, but rather that there is huge amount to take in!

Oitrakh playing the Violin Concerto is the best so far! Best by any standards!

ATB from George

....oops misread the thread!

Hahahahaha!

Just about to brew some coffee or else it could have been new keyboard time!

ATB from George

Very enjoyable thread, George. I leanered a few things :-)

The pictures are tremendously useful.

...All joking aside as a rock/jazz fan I haven't half learnt a lot about classical music from the threads like this one posted on here...

I'm guessing that the stand up plucked bass as utlised by rock n'roll bands in the 50's was originally derived from the instruments discussed here ....or is there no real connection?

The old upright bass came more or less straight out of the orchestra, with the possible tiny exception that the strings might be chosen specially for plucking and therefore be less fine on bowed music.

Otherwise the instruments were and are the same.

I even played my big five string bass in a few rock band rehearsals and that was strung with the same style of gut strings that Haydn and Beethoven would have recocognised two centuries ago!

What is more the perfectly unplugged instrument projected right through the sounds of amplified voice, guitars and the heavy drum kit.

On another occasion I was playing in a week's run of Westside Story, which was absolutely normal except for the addition of modern dance in place of the ballet scenes, and the change to a rock band to play the music re-arranged to fit electric guitars [includng bass] instead of Bernstein's orchestra.

Well I was playing in the orchestra and was looking forward to being able to listen and enjoy the dances scenes, but the conductor ruined it for me by asking that I play the electric bass line on my big five string orchestral bass [with its old style gut strings!].

I said that would be wasted effort as clearly the accousric intrument could never cut through the amplified sounds, but complied. At the rehearsal where the decision was made the producer walked to the back and decided to make the accoutic bass play all the notes and make the electric bass only play in the loudest climaxes as the accoustic bass was so projecting of the clear driving rhythm of the music, the dance, and the new choreography!

I could barely hear what I was doing when sitting right by some very large speaker cabs, but a well set up double bass rarely needs amplification, once you allow it the space to project.

Oddly, double basses are very difficult to record well ...

ATB from George

GFFJ, this is as good a place as any to post your comments on bass (and the entire string family's) articulation and how it changed.

Bowing and plucking are not the only alternatives. Back in ancient times, George Melly had an interval routine, part of which involved him playing "Big Noise from Winetka" on the double bass using borrowed drumsticks.
Happy days, when I was young!
Regards,
Ken

The French bow hold by yours truly!



ATB from George