Mac Mini/DAC vs. CDX/XPS
Posted by: John M on 01 September 2008
I have been really excited about the posts of those people finding great listening pleasure through the Mac Mini + DAC combos. I love the pursuit of pleasing my ears and thus far, after 4 years of exploring NAIM, I must say I have been VERY pleased. But I am always trying new things, especially inexpensive things, to try out. I decided to go down the Mac/DAC combo road to see what I would find. While I have been using my Mac as a music source, it has been relegated to my office, somewhat pleasing near field listening and mostly through an M/Audio firewire conversion to a NAIT5. Until now I had not given it a shot in my main system, which pleases me greatly just as it is, but why not, I thought.
So While I have a little time while my wife is at the store, and my daughter and son are playing, I am writing this completely unsolicited, simple, amateur "review." I present this not as a problem to be solved or tweaked. I just wanted to share my experience. It is worth exactly the price you paid for it
My results are by no means scientific or controlled or what not, just my ears and me, rolling back and forth between sources on a NAC 82. One one line in I had my CDX/XPS and the other a brand new mac mini sending Itunes out via digital optical out to an Ack!DAC. On another session, I sent Itunes out over firewire to my M-Audio Firewire 1814. I am learning a bit about DACs and USB and Firewire issues with digital audio streams, but I am no expert.
NOTE: I have the volume on my Mac preferences turned all the way up; I have no equalizing or anything else artificial in Itunes to mess with the stream. I rip my CDs either with error correction or with Max which is a CD ripper sort of like EAC that gets bit for bit accuracy. I rip losslessly, as in bit for bit.
TEST 1: Mac>optical-coax converter/AckDAC vs. CDX/XPS
Test music: David Crosby "If I could only remember my name" most recent remaster.
Results: The CDX/XPS kicks ass. It just sounds great. Taking into account input volume differences the CDX/XPS just has expanded range of frequency and more guts. The Mac/DAC sounds muted in the high frequencies and just does not convey the sound of Crosby's fingers on the fretboard like the CDX/XPS. I dont really know what else to add.
Test 2: Mac>firewire>M-Audio Firewire 1814
Test music: Same (I love that Crosby album)
Results: The CDX/XPS still kicks ass. It just cant be matched by the Mac as it is set up. Similarly, the Mac sounds muted and a bit boring, frankly. But I would rather just say the CDX/XPS sounds exciting and just makes me smile.
What I come away with is not a condemnation of the Mac/DAC, but a renewed appreciation of my system as is (I can hear the sighs...typical Californian always on the sunnyside..)
I am interested in trying other things, other DACs, other USB based options like the Wavelength Brick or the Lavry or others. I do like the idea of having my music play well from the hard drive, especially since I have had issues with decaying CDs (they wont last forever!)
So I had fun listening and writing this, hope you got something out of it. Comments are welcome.
John
Posted on: 01 September 2008 by imperialline
quote:
Originally posted by John M:
TEST 1: Mac>optical-coax converter/AckDAC vs. CDX/XPS
...
Test 2: Mac>firewire>M-Audio Firewire 1814
The key thing here is that you are using the wrong DAC - Not every DAC sounds the same.
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
quote:
Originally posted by imperialline:
quote:
Originally posted by John M:
TEST 1: Mac>optical-coax converter/AckDAC vs. CDX/XPS
...
Test 2: Mac>firewire>M-Audio Firewire 1814
The key thing here is that you are using the wrong DAC - Not every DAC sounds the same.
That's certainly true, but it may be worth checking the PC/operating system isn't getting in the way. Using the same DAC, a correctly setup computer or hard disc solution should be better than the transport IME.
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by John M
quote:
Originally posted by Steve S1:
quote:
Originally posted by imperialline:
quote:
Originally posted by John M:
TEST 1: Mac>optical-coax converter/AckDAC vs. CDX/XPS
...
Test 2: Mac>firewire>M-Audio Firewire 1814
The key thing here is that you are using the wrong DAC - Not every DAC sounds the same.
That's certainly true, but it may be worth checking the PC/operating system isn't getting in the way. Using the same DAC, a correctly setup computer or hard disc solution should be better than the transport IME.
Steve
I think what I was getting at was just that. The Mac Mini "as set up" did not sound as good as my CDX. As I mentioned I am interested in trying other DACs. On the other hand I was disappointed that the Mac solution did not sound better because the Ack!DAC has been favorably reviewed before (for whatever that is worth) and is a pretty neutral piece of equipment (battery powered NOS, filterless if my information is correct) I also thought the firewire solution might catch my ears and was disappointed again. This is more used for its ADC capabilities at high sampling rates, but as a DAC I had hoped it would sound better.
Steve - I think what set me down this road was hearing from Munch about your explorations. I tried to make sure my MAC OSX 10.4.11 is not getting in the way. I noted that I had made certain common safeguards against OS interference - i.e. turning off all equalization and garbage in itunes, error checking on ripping etc. So if I don't have the "correct setup" can you make some suggestions? Thanks.
John
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
Hi John,
I'm using an Intel MacBook with OSX 10.5.4. I didn't have any earlier versions, so can't say whether this makes a difference over 10.4.11. All I can say is that this Mac was far better than both Vista and XP PCs that I had (could easily be my lack of knowledge for the PCs - they seem to need more attention to get a pure audio stream).
The OSX Audio MIDI Settings for the built in optical output sound best (to me) on 44khz 2-ch 24bit for CD rips. Volume settings at max.
iTunes volume is at max and settings for playback have crossfade, sound enhancer and sound check all switched off. Also the graphic equalizer (under "view") switched off.
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by glevethan
Steve
Have you been exclusively using iTunes for your Rips or have you played around with MAX?
Thanks
Gregg
PS I think I asked you this before but I don't remember (and these multiple threads have gotten so long!) - does your optical cable have a 3.5mm adapter to connect to the Mac (as my XTREME HD does) or are you using one which does not require the adapter?
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
Steve
Have you been exclusively using iTunes for your Rips or have you played around with MAX?
Thanks
Gregg
PS I think I asked you this before but I don't remember (and these multiple threads have gotten so long!) - does your optical cable have a 3.5mm adapter to connect to the Mac (as my XTREME HD does) or are you using one which does not require the adapter?
Hi Gregg,
Have used MAX for converting FLAC 24/96 files only. I'm very happy with the Apple Lossless rips, never missed anything when comparing them to the CD they came from, and have never heard any difference between WAV, Apple or FLAC using the same CD. Consequently I stopped bothering to compare rip formats a while ago.
My optical cables (all three 1m, 3m & 5m) sound exactly the same to me and all use an adapter. I've sent for one without - but I don't expect it to sound different - I would just prefer not to have a fiddly bit to potentially lose. I would expect optical cable to either work or not.
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by John M
Thanks Steve
I forgot to say that the Mac Mini is actually running 10.5.4 as well. I was looking at my office computer as I typed - which is not what I have hooked up on this test.
So it looks as if we have the exact same settings from what I can tell. Makes my results and your comment that the same DAC with correctly setup computer hard disc transport should sound better than the CD transport still confounding to me - as in "am I screwing this up somehow?". I really would like this to work for me, but I wont listen to the Mac, even with the added convenience of itunes, when I have my CDX\XPS ready willing and able to sound so great. Maybe imperialine is right, I need to try a different DAC..meanwhile enjoying my CDX.
John
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
Hi John,
Maybe he is right. I don't know the Ack other than a few people saying it's very good at the price - how much was it?
The Beresford is another that is well regarded at £100 or so, but Keith on here was quick to say it's not a patch on the Benchmark DAC1. I prefer the Lavry to that - so I guess trying a different DAC might be interesting for you.
An error corrected data stream ought to be the equal of one that is being corrected during playback, I'd have thought. Mine was better than my CDS3. You mentioned Munch, well I'm sure he won't mind me saying that his flat-capped CD5x wasn't even close.
Best regards,
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by thesherrif
Interesting. John is using a mac mini.... I wonder if the audio output chips are the same as in a macbook ?
Also the AckDaC sells for $150..... A Lavry DA10 for about $1000, and so I'd expect to hear a difference ! Chances are that the DAC inside the CDX is somewhat better than the Ackdac.
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
quote:
Originally posted by thesherrif:
Interesting. John is using a mac mini.... I wonder if the audio output chips are the same as in a macbook ?
Also the AckDaC sells for $150..... A Lavry DA10 for about $1000, and so I'd expect to hear a difference ! Chances are that the DAC inside the CDX is somewhat better than the Ackdac.
The Sherrif is quicker on the draw.
Ah well at $150 yes indeed. It's a big ask to get up there John.
I forgot to say, I think PWR is using a Mac Mini with a Lavry. He may comment if he sees this.
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by garyi
Although it is perfectly reasonable to expect the CDX combo to sound better just make sure you are giving the mini a fair chance.
I suggest using the optical capability of the mini, do not use firewire.
Open up the midi application in the utilities folder once you have hooked everything up and select the appropriate output and check how its outputting. You can play with these settings.
If outputting with itunes open up the preferences and make sure the sound enhancer settings are all off. Also open the graphic equaliser and make sure its unticked.
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
Gary,
It's an £80 DAC. John seems to have the Mac settings OK.
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by John M
Me and me poor DAC...sniff sniff
Yeah making things worse, I had to buy the AckDAC for $350 a coupla years ago. Although I have heard it sound nice, I do think it may be dragging an anchor in my mini mac system. But that was the purpose of this - to reveal my listening assessment of this solution - and to sort out my next step.
I am also interested in the Wavelength line of USB dacs. I did a search of the forum and did not find any mention. Anyone heard one?
Thanks again, Steve. And by the way, Munch told me the very same thing, so you did not abuse his confidence.
John
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by Steve S1:
I've sent for one without - but I don't expect it to sound different - I would just prefer not to have a fiddly bit to potentially lose. I would expect optical cable to either work or not.
Steve
Steve
Which brand sans adapter did you purchase?
Gregg
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by CharlieP
John,
For what it's worth, I sold my CDX+XPS after hearing the Lavry DA-10 fed from a modded Squeezebox. The difference made the XPS addition seem subtle (IE, difference was huge). I have posted before on this.
Curious. Are we listening to different aspects of the music? Or can the DAC's be that different?
Charlie
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by Steve S1
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
Steve
Which brand sans adapter did you purchase?
Gregg
Gregg,
Hosa. Try Amazon dot com, there are a few if you search.
Steve
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by garyi
The only reason I mention the firewire dac is that it may not be available for adjustment in the audio midi application in the utilities folder.
More over an 80 quid dac is unlikley to have a lot more going for it than the dac soldered on any computer, lets be realistic.
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by Steve S1:
Gregg,
Hosa. Try Amazon dot com, there are a few if you search.
Steve
Steve
Thanks for the reply. If you get a chance could you email me at greggatlevethan.com?
Thanks
Gregg
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by John M
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
The only reason I mention the firewire dac is that it may not be available for adjustment in the audio midi application in the utilities folder.
More over an 80 quid dac is unlikley to have a lot more going for it than the dac soldered on any computer, lets be realistic.
The firewire box is available for adjustment in the audio midi app and also has a software interface of its own that you can make adjustments with.
Probably true. However the AckDAC sold new for more like 200 quid. Not that it is any great shakes, but have you taken a look at the specs on this box or are you guessing?
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by John M
quote:
Originally posted by CharlieP:
John,
For what it's worth, I sold my CDX+XPS after hearing the Lavry DA-10 fed from a modded Squeezebox. The difference made the XPS addition seem subtle (IE, difference was huge). I have posted before on this.
Curious. Are we listening to different aspects of the music? Or can the DAC's be that different?
Charlie
Thanks Charlie - Interesting. Sounds like I need to listen to this Lavry. I have done some reading up on it over the past weeks and the builder seems to have a very impressive resume and has a nice way of explaining his voodoo in laymen's (or non-engineers) terms. Time to start saving money.
In summary I dont think we are listening for different qualities. The difference is so stark in my A/B testing, I cant imagine you would not notice it. Especially in that sweet listening room you have!!!
Anyway I think it is just that the DAC I have does not deliver like I am sure I will find the Lavry does!!
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by John M
quote:
Originally posted by Steve S1:
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
Steve
Which brand sans adapter did you purchase?
Gregg
Gregg,
Hosa. Try Amazon dot com, there are a few if you search.
Steve
I use the Hosa as well. I also have a Hosa optical to coax converter. They make good stuff. Van Den Hul makes a 3.5 (mini stereo) to TOSLINK optical cable that is supposed to be extremely high quality. But then again I have never been in to spending outrageous sums on cables. The Hosa is very affordable.
Posted on: 03 September 2008 by User34
quote:
Originally posted by John M:
Makes my results and your comment that the same DAC with correctly setup computer hard disc transport should sound better than the CD transport still confounding to me - as in "am I screwing this up somehow?". I really would like this to work for me, but I wont listen to the Mac, even with the added convenience of itunes, when I have my CDX\XPS ready willing and able to sound so great. Maybe imperialine is right, I need to try a different DAC..meanwhile enjoying my CDX.
John
John,
I have CDX/XPS/HiLine. I'm also streaming from a mac mini, running 10.4.11, via Airport Express to a Beresford Dac. I've yet to do any really nerdy comparisons, but the streamming option is vanishingly close to the CDX/XPS/HiLine. To the point that i'm suspecting that the difference is down to the HiLine.
My feeling is that the CD player has more heft. But if the mac was all I had I wouldn't be missing anything musically.
Posted on: 03 September 2008 by John M
Wait a minute - are you calling me NERDY....ok then thank you
Your comment has me even more convinced that my DAC sucks!! I am ready to try another one and spend a bunch of money!!
Seriously thanks for your input.
John
Posted on: 03 September 2008 by User34
quote:
Originally posted by John M:
Wait a minute - are you calling me NERDY....ok then thank you
Humour appreciated
, but I was referring to myself. I've not tried A/B/A comparisons is what I'm talking about. I've had the combo with the DAC about a month, during which time it's sound is supposed to settle. I think the CDX/XPS/HiLine is better, but it's marginal and could depend on which way the wind is blowing
Peter
