Running cables the wrong way round
Posted by: Steve Toy on 22 December 2002
I recently tried Townsend Isolda in my sistem, and it added a bit more detail at the top end which I liked.
Unfortunately, I began to notice how boxy my big Regas were sounding, and so I thought about upgrading my speakers for a nice pair of Ruark Prologues. The Isolda wasn't the night-versus-day improvement that I'd heard at my dealer, so I concluded that my speakers were simply not revealing enough to allow the Isolda to show its worth.
I put the Naca5 back into place, and the boxy colorations disappeared.
Hang on, the sistem sounds even better than it did before when the Naca5 was in, but why?
I thought that maybe my mind was playing tricks on me, and psychologically I was perhaps falling into the trap of believing that any change was an improvement, even an A-B-A change. However, the cables lie flat on the floor better than before rather than trying to coil up.
I have never heard so much definition, separation, tunefulness, and lack of harshness in my own sistem.

Then I noticed that the Naca5 cables arrows were pointing towards the amp and not the speakers on both channels. I had accidentally installed them against their indicated directionality but on both sides! I wondered if Naim had printed the directionality the wrong way round on this particular cable, and that I'd effectively been running them the wrong way round for the last two and a half years.

Then it occured to me doing a bit of rotation in my brain - a bit like reading a map upside down to navigate in a southerly direction, but in 3D (I still haven't got my head around that one

) that by reversing the directionality, I may have flattened out the cable by making it lie contrary to its natural coiling tendency from when it was first pulled and cut from the roll, and that the benefits of doing this may outweight the possible disadvantages of running the cable against its prescribed directionality.
For the record, the red banana plugs are still inserted into the red sockets on both the speakers and the back of the power amp, and the same applying (of course) to the black plugs.
Is this totally weird, and/or have I finally tipped over into insanity?

bigtime!
Perhaps I should take my Naca5 to the hairdressers to have its perm straightened out?
To clarify things a bit, my cables are short @ 2.5m a side as my electronics are sited between the speakers.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by garyi
Can't say as I have ever noticed a difference with cables in either direction, as such they are which ever way in my system.
Also I have not detected any differences between the black and lavender snaics.
I is either deaf, or not playing ball.
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by Simon Crosland
quote:
I is either deaf, or not playing ball.
You are in good company. There are numerous well documented double-blind listening tests where selections of academics, general punters, hifi reviewers, manufacturers and "golden ears" have all failed to hear any difference. All tests that I know of where a difference is perceived were not of the double-blind sort, so much of the difference may be down to psychology rather than any real physical effect.
BTW, has anyone come across any sound Newtonian physics explanation for how a metal wire could have directional characteristics at audio frequencies? Discounting incorrectly constructed wires with the gounds lifted, or capacitors added to one connector of course!
I have often wondered if the differences are actually caused by badly designed input and output stages on the electronics, rather than the wires.
Simon
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by David Stewart
Simon
quote:
I have often wondered if the differences are actually caused by badly designed input and output stages on the electronics, rather than the wires.
Oooooooh! - a bit controversial that so close to Xmas with the mods being off-duty till 2nd Jan
(or are they?).
David
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by Simon Crosland
quote:
Oooooooh! - a bit controversial that so close to Xmas with the mods being off-duty till 2nd Jan (or are they?).
Actually I wasn't trying to be controversial with regard to Naim. Yes, the subject of cable directionality is inherently controversial, but I thought that it was well within the bounds of acceptability here (it's not related to any company or likely to get anyone into legal difficulties).
I'm just an EE graduate with a strong physics bent who wants to see the evidence.
Cheers,
Simon
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
I have often wondered if the differences are actually caused by badly designed input and output stages on the electronics, rather than the wires.
I don't see any mechanism whereby the input/output stages could cause directional effects in the wires.
We're on very dodgy ground bringing up proper listening testing. AFAIK nobody has been able to distinguish competent amps operated within their design parameters in a blind test, let alone two cables of similar bulk electrical properties, let alone the direction those cables are connected.
I've often wondered why not.
Paul
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by Simon Crosland
quote:
I don't see any mechanism whereby the input/output stages could cause directional effects in the wires.
You can cause directional effects by messing with resistance, inductance and capacitance in the i/o stages. If you want to play with this, make a cable with a 10,000 ohm resister is series with the signal built into one connector, and a .01 uF capacitor signal to ground inside the other connector. It should sound (and measure) different one direction vs. the other.
In case it wasn't obvious, I consider Naim gear to be properly designed - it works with any cables I have tried in whatever orientation.
quote:
AFAIK nobody has been able to distinguish competent amps operated within their design parameters in a blind test, let alone two cables of similar bulk electrical properties, let alone the direction those cables are connected.
I've often wondered why not.
Exactly my point.
Cheers,
Simon
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by garyi
Come on gents lets get real, its a bit of wire with a connector. Dress it up anyway you like, make it look thick or thin, nice coloured outers, shiney innards you love it.
But at the end of the day its a bit of wire with an outer casing, costs vary, some bless them are even plaited.
But its just wire.
Lets have a new years res' , we will not be suckered in by this crap any more.
Come on let me hear you.
Its a bit of wire.
Wire that is.
Like what you get on a fence.
Wire.
Common Mr Toy, fes up, you were bored you started a thread, you heard no difference. Because its wire.
Wire.
Wyyyyiiirrrreeeeeeee..
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by dave simpson
Steve,
Directionality is audible but (IMHO), not as audible as coiling excess speaker cable. Killed the top end in my rig (only doubled back over itself once as it ran back to the amp against the skirting boards-both runs were this way though).
regards,
dave
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
If you want to play with this, make a cable with a 10,000 ohm resister is series with the signal built into one connector, and a .01 uF capacitor signal to ground inside the other connector. It should sound (and measure) different one direction vs. the other.
That's cheating!
But I wonder what's in those terminating boxes that are popular in some lunatic cable fringes?
Paul
Posted on: 23 December 2002 by Andrew L. Weekes
quote:
You can cause directional effects by messing with resistance, inductance and capacitance in the i/o stages.
You can also do it through impedance discontinuity at RF or with digital signals.
Don't think that has anything to do with audible effects at audio frequencies though...
A.
Posted on: 26 December 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew L. Weekes:
You can also do it through impedance discontinuity at RF or with digital signals.
Don't think that has anything to do with audible effects at audio frequencies though...
Andy,
speaker cables seem quite efficient at picking up RF.
I can easily see how this would let RF into the power amp, and then cause audible effects.
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 26 December 2002 by Steve Toy
I noticed a big improvement with ISOLDA in my dealers dem room, which is why I bothered to take it home. You still haven't got over the money you wasted on those Anthem interconnects, have you?

Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 26 December 2002 by Steve Toy
You may have a point regading excess cable. I only need 2 metres aside as my kit is sited between my speakers which themselves are only 1.5m apart. The ISOLDA I borrowed was two bog-standard 5m lengths with wire piled up like a rats nest at the back of my sistem.
The Naca5 is very short, but being stiff it has a tendency to form itself into a giant loop over its short distance from amps to speakers when run in the prescribed direction. The wrong way round, and it lies nice and flat.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 26 December 2002 by NaimDropper
I agree, there can't be any reasonable (even a reasonably unreasonable) explanation for that one...
Symmetrically juxtaposed, identical conductors in carefully manufactured, properly terminated cable (that incidentally looks like 300 ohm antenna cable on serious steroids!) should have no direction... Given that directionality should imply different performance at different terminations, not some magical change in electrical characteristics down the length of the cable.
Bananas on both ends (or XLRs on the speaker ends in the case of my ancient DMS) would cause a “bump in the road” at frequencies in excess of 2 or 3 MHz (a guess only), but it would only affect things at or above those bands. And the effect would be a gentle roll-off of these super high frequencies (that is well-above audio).
Big difference between NACA4 and NACA5, no doubt. One of the best VFM improvements I’ve made.
Much thicker conductors and world-class user-hostile stiffness. No reason I can imagine why such a stiff material needed to be used. There are so many choices in insulator materials with similar dielectric constants, absorption, breakdown, etc.
Now, please, someone tell me that the twist of the conductors cause the harmonious interaction of the magnetic or electric fields between the conductors… Or the Coriolus effect… And our pals in the Southern hemisphere need to change direction… And those near the equator can go either way!
Hmmm.
Here's my take: Naim needed to print something on one of the conductors so polarity could be observed easily. Why not put an arrow on it and perpetuate the mystique? Seems to have worked...
David
Posted on: 26 December 2002 by Steve Toy
Directionality actually does seem to make a difference within the wire itself. I have heard this with the Chord Chrysalis interconnect which has identical terminations at both ends.
Most wires for hi-fi have an indicated directionality marked upon them, not just Naim i/cs and cables. Sometimes, though, the directionality can be incorrectly labelled.
Such a discovery of incorrect directionality labelling would indeed confirm the existence of the phenomenon, even if the evidence was only apparent through subjective listening along the lines of the fact that it didn't sound right for some reason, and that this conclusion may only be reached following several days' listening as the problem slowly dawned on you.
Reversing the direction of the cable for me has more than once returned (long-term) listening satisfaction.
My sistem has regained its musical "rightness" in the form of PR&T, tune, flow, and lyricism. Music once again makes sense on an emotional level - (and some more) after my recent power amp upgrade which initially gave me a somewhat mixed improvement.
Now I have everything I had before plus better dynamics, attack, and bass control/tune in the bass.
For a while I had more hi-fi.
Now I have Music!

ALL upgrades should be subject to borrowing the new piece of kit at home in your sistem for a few days, or otherwise the initial "impressiveness" of a quick-fire dem may ultimately leave you crying in your beer, and losing the will to live.
I am sure that the ISOLDA cable makes a real musical difference into certain types of speaker, in certain given environments such as that of my dealer's dem room using those baby Ruarks, and the Sugden Bijou system.
However, in my own set-up, it took me a few days to realise that any perceived improvements were initially not all that significant, and later that an actual degradation of overall musicality had occured which manifested itself as an overall dissatifaction with my musical experience.
I was also playing music less often during those few days during which I borrowed the cables, and I was then looking elsewhere for fixes, such as a possible speaker upgrade.
I now think that an additional pair of Mana Sound Bases may now be the key to giving me more of what I am already enjoying with my music, as they may help to reduce microphony between the speakers throug the floor, and into the cables and back ito the electronics.
Naca5 is an unwieldly bugger of a cable whose coiling tendency even over short runs is often its undoing, but get it well-dressd, and it sings like no other cable in certain set-ups such as my own.

Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by NaimDropper
I know that musical enjoyment rarely comes from some contrived, pseudo-scientific experiment such as a double-blind study with speaker cables, etc. Such experiments are so hard to do since there are many variables that may not be apparent to the experimenters or the subjects!
If you've found something that works and keeps you (at least temporarily) from going out and spending the kid's college savings on the latest speaker or interconnect or whatever, then that's great! You're way ahead of the game.
I hedged on NACA5 for such a time, and was finally convinced to try it after reading many postings on the stuff. And when I changed only one side and had my wife and 6 & 7 year old boys tell me which side sounded better, they chose the NACA5 side. Yeah, that is also pretty contrived and the classic "my wife ran in the room and started crying because it sounded so good!!!" but they all liked the 5. And my DMS are so happy now!
Power supplies and siting make such a difference, and they can be easily explained. Signal cables can be asymmetrically terminated to match the output and input impedances of various devices. (Although, one could argue that if a signal cable makes a huge difference, the input or output stage of the equipment is inadequately designed!!!) I just would like to see some real science behind speaker cable directionality when it comes to the completely symmetrical NACA5. And my installation through tight plastic conduit does not allow for easy experimentation. As a matter of fact, I'll probably have to leave the stuff in the wall when I move...
David
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by mykel
I was told that the directionalily came from when the wire was pulled during manufacure. Now this would assume that the constituant parts of multi-strand cable would also be the same direction.
regards,
michael
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by Steve Toy
I'm just so glad that my sistem rediscovered musicality after the power amp upgrade without me having to spend any money on a new CD player, new cables, new speakers, or fancy mains conditioners, although I have heard all of the above to make a significant no-brainer improvement elswhere.
I may just buy an additional pair of Mana Sound Bases to give me a bit more of what I already have.

Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 29 December 2002 by garyi
Steven I have just swapped my cables around and heard no difference what so ever.
Would it be fair to say then that directionality is specific to different parts of the country?
Or would it be fairer to say you have convinced yourself of a difference and I have convinced myself there is no difference?
which of us therefore is correct?
Posted on: 29 December 2002 by Steve Toy
Garyi,
I did state one other variable than just directionality. Also, leave the cables like that for a few days before you reach any firm conclusions...
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 29 December 2002 by garyi
Steve, I would say leaving them a few days would not reep any conclusion whatsoever.
After the xx-1 cart went south I mourned its passing, now I can't remember how it sounded.