New Discoveries in Beethoven?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
"The Best" in so far as there is such a thing in these great works is Brendel's digital set....Brendel's digital set should be preferred in all cases, most particularly for the live "Hammerklavier", challenged in supremacy only by Gilels on DG, and his 109,110,111 disc is among the finest recordings you'll ever hear of anything.

Suffice it to say, I disagree pretty much completely. Of Brendel’s three sets, I find his analog Philips set the best, and find his 109 from that cycle to be superb. I find him very weak in Op 106, though, and while Gilels is much better, I can’t say he’s one of my favorites – he’s just way too slow.

You've got strange taste! Oh well, life would be dull if everyone like the same recordings, although I can't think many people would find that live Hammerklavier from Vienna to be "weak" - with all due respect to subjective preference of course!

I love to read what others think about this or that!

I rarely go out on a limb about musical performances though, unless I like them 100 per cent, because I am quite sure lots of people really do like things that I don't!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:

He's better live and better in Mozart. I heard him play his first ever live performance of the Diabelli variations and it was mostly very good - if, as usual, a bit nondescript here and there. He played a Mozart sonata - one of the 271 set I think - very well indeed, and then I almost fell asleep when he played Valee de Oberman, a piece I adore!

There's a recording of him playing some Mozart piano trios on Hyperion which shows him at his best, I'll see if I can find it later. Worth adding that Alfred Brendel no less thinks he's pretty good, although the great man is a bit naughty - he sometimes lavishes praise on people who can't hold a candle to him whilst lambasting those who show him a clean set of heals!

(Paul Lewis I mean - less haste more speed! )

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
How about lithe?

This is harder to describe succinctly, but it basically has to do with how the pianist handles transitions in the music. By lithe I generally mean fluid and quick, and more dependent on emphasizing playing with the fingers, as opposed to hunching over and throwing the shoulders into the playing, for instance. That doesn’t necessarily translate into outstanding performances, nor does it mean that other pianists are slouches in this area.


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quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

I rarely go out on a limb about musical performances though, unless I like them 100 per cent, because I am quite lots of people really do like things that I don't!

ATB from George

I'm with you on that one George.

But Todd A, what about lithe?

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
...I can't think many people would find that live Hammerklavier from Vienna to be "weak" - with all due respect to subjective preference of course!

Compared to the command of Pollini and the intensity and near-metronomic performance of Gulda, as well as the marmoreal readings by pianists like Frank or Serkin, Brendel sounds weak. He can't muster the scale and drive the piece deserves. In other words, he misses the mark in much the same way he botches Mussorgsky's Pictures.


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quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
But Todd A, what about lithe?

It is not for mortals to challenge the wisdom of the omniscient Creator!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
Compared to the command of Pollini and the intensity and near-metronomic performance of Gulda, as well as the marmoreal readings by pianists like Frank or Serkin, Brendel sounds weak. He can't muster the scale and drive the piece deserves. In other words, he misses the mark in much the same way he botches Mussorgsky's Pictures.
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Kripes, whose Hammerklavier do you actually like??? It must be good...!

or who's even - it's getting late!

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Kripes, whose Hammerklavier do you actually like??? It must be good...!

Well, the four I mentioned rank among them.


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quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
But Todd A, what about lithe?

It is not for mortals to challenge the wisdom of the omniscient Creator!

Since I always read Todd A's posts, I want to move to the next level and understand what he means. That might even result in dialog in addition to comprehension.

So what specifically makes a performance of the Opus 109 lithe?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
So what specifically makes a performance of the Opus 109 lithe?

For now I'll stick with my general description above. I'd need to write a more detailed comparison of at least two recordings to illustrate what I mean, and right now Beethoven sonatas are not in my listening pile, the last disc of Andre De Groote's cycle excepted.


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quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
So what specifically makes a performance of the Opus 109 lithe?

For now I'll stick with my general description above. I'd need to write a more detailed comparison of at least two recordings to illustrate what I mean, and right now Beethoven sonatas are not in my listening pile, the last disc of Andre De Groote's cycle excepted.


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Once again, fair enough. A paragraph or two would be more than sufficient - no term paper required.

But don't forget :-)

It's obvious you spend a lot of time thinking out your posts. I think it's also obvious I act on what I read here by buying.

Help me get more out of your posts. I will be more than happy to reciprocate.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
Well, the four I mentioned rank among them.

OK, but you weren't exactly gushing about those!

Fair enough I suppose. I tend to enthuse rather too much about the stuff I like. To be honest, I probably shouldn't admit to this but I'm a bit Beethoven sonataed off at the moment, I've listened to them far too much over the past ten years or so. I gather there's a live Hammerklavier by Serkin on BBC Legends that I'd still like to hear, but otherwise I'm taking a break from them. THe 32 are great but there's more to life!!

A little off topic I know, but I was listening to Edwin Fischer's recording of the well-tempered clavier last night and it reminded me just how remarkable a totally flawed and old fashioned performance can be. It does somehow make a nonsense of criticism when that which is flawed can so obviously hit the musical spot. I dare say I've just traveled a road where I'm now happier to live with recordings that I like because I like them rather than because I'd necessarily recommend them to others.

Such is the mystery of music making I suppose!

I really enjoyed the Edwin Fischer "48" recording.

Eventually I gave it to someone to convert him to Bach, which was a complete success.

Then I got the 48 from Walcha, playing on a harpsichord, but those old Fischer recordings were and are lovely - arguably flawed in respects but completely lovely ...

ATB from George

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Originally posted by GFFJ:
arguably flawed in respects but completely lovely ...

Yep, they certainly are. Wrong notes, missing notes, all manner of what would these days be described as "bad habits", but the subtlety of shading and inflection, the sympathy, the tenderness, the poetry... notice I've just reeled off a whole load of adjectives that ought really to apply to a great musical performance, which is exactly what it is!

I love the Pinnock set by the way, I've been having hours of fun! I'm still waiting on the new Mullova Sonatas & Partitas - I ordered them direct from Onyx, they were cheaper than Amazon by a whisker and I thought they could make more money on it if I bought direct from them, but I was rather hoping they'd actually send me the CDs...!

Ah well, something to look forward to!

EW

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
I really enjoyed the Edwin Fischer "48" recording.

Eventually I gave it to someone to convert him to Bach, which was a complete success.

Then I got the 48 from Walcha, playing on a harpsichord, but those old Fischer recordings were and are lovely - arguably flawed in respects but completely lovely ...

ATB from George

I want to hear the Edwin Fischer. How flawed is the recording? Is it clear?

Are "THE 48" the Well Tempered Clavier?

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
OK, but you weren't exactly gushing about those

I didn't need to gush, but here I shall: Pollini's recording, in particular, is just about as great a recording of 106 as can be imagined. Totally amazing.

I must say that I agree completely regarding Edwin Fischer's WTC. Flawed in some respects, it is still a, dare I say it, magical recording. I can think of none better.


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That does it, I'm ordering the Edwin Fischer right now.

I checked on Amazon. I found three different choices for the Fischer WTC :

2008 remastered
2000
1999

any guidance here?

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Wel...id=1249244246&sr=1-1

Here is a link to Amazon.com to listen to the samples for Fischer's recording.

One audio sample will speak more than paragraphs!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
That does it, I'm ordering the Edwin Fischer right now.

I checked on Amazon. I found three different choices for the Fischer WTC :

2008 remastered
2000
1999

any guidance here?

Well, I've got the 1999 one which is fine, but I love it so much I might just buy the Great Recordings (2008) one too! (The great recordings remaster of the Late Beethoven Quartets by the Busch was stunning, worth buying again.)

Yes, do go for it. You'd need to be deaf not to love every note of Fischer's 48s.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
OK, but you weren't exactly gushing about those

I didn't need to gush, but here I shall: Pollini's recording, in particular, is just about as great a recording of 106 as can be imagined. Totally amazing.

That's more like it! (Sorry for being grouchy, I've just got off the motorway, it's been a very long day!)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
any guidance here?

Most people who've heard multiple transfers prefer the Pearl set, but it's nearly impossible to get. The Naxos transfers filter a bit too much noise and sound a bit dull on top, but are otherwise acceptable. I don't know the EMI transfers.


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Yeah, the Naxos ones sound a bit dull. Either of the EMI ones will be fine, but I'd go for the Great Recordings one rather than the References one I've got unless there's a big price difference.