New Discoveries in Beethoven?

Posted by: mikeeschman on 01 August 2009

Anyone found a new performer of Beethoven that really knocks you out?

I am primarily interested in the piano sonatas and the symphonies.

For the piano sonatas I have Pollini, Barenboim, Glenn Gould, Arrau and Rudolph Serkin.

For the symphonies I have Gardiner, Jochum, Reiner, Szell and Stokowski.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

Posted on: 03 August 2009 by mikeeschman

quote:
Originally posted by Todd A:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
People will assume you know of what you write.

Really, who does? When I visit various internet forums, I assume most people are writing their opinions, and almost certainly not expert opinions. When I want expert opinions, I go to the appropriate sources. I guess I may have a different outlook on the internet than some people.

Something you should keep in mind about the opinions you write is that they are just that - opinions. However well informed they are, when you deal with something fundamentally subjective like quality of musical performances (which is different from a scientific venture), then even the best qualified opinions are merely opinions. I've read heated and technical debates between people who have vast education in music, and yet the debating parties come to completely different conclusions about relative performance quality. So much for vaunted expertise.

I must say that the escalating personal nature of your learned comments is more than a little juvenile, but then again, this is the internet, so it is only to be expected.

--

I imagine you write volumes of reviews because you fancy yourself a writer. If you were, that would have genuine entertainment value. You are not.

Whenever it strikes my fancy, I can rub two sentences together and start a fire. All you get are damp, moldy wood chips.

Your assertion that since experts disagree, nothing they write holds water is self serving. It gives you license to indulge your ego. Those who comprehend the areas of disagreement get an idea of where the boundaries lay. That is the value of being in the audience, to gain a sense of dimension about the world of human accomplishment being discussed.

I don't recall any expert opinion being cited in your reviews. Did I miss something?

And classical music rests on a foundation of performance practice that is quite concrete. It naturally changes over time, just like the English language does. It is not entirely subjective. It is quite well documented.

As far as being childish, I had enough of your opinion and wanted to give you a taste of what you do to performers that can't defend themselves.

Posted on: 03 August 2009 by Todd A

quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I imagine you write volumes of reviews because you fancy yourself a writer.

As far as being childish, I had enough of your opinion and wanted to give you a taste of what you do to performers that can't defend themselves.

To the first point, not at all. A writer is a person who makes a living from writing. I don’t.

To the second point, you failed. My criticism of Paul Lewis is that he is a mediocrity as a pianist and ends there. You, however, continue beyond a similar point, but apparently you don't see that. It rather makes me wonder if you can indeed "rub two sentences together and start a fire." (Thanks for that, by the way – it is one of the funniest, daftest things I read online for a while.)

So you are a classical music fan who prefers a more insular world. That’s fine, but such an approach doesn’t help the art form you so enjoy.

--

Posted on: 03 August 2009 by mikeeschman

quote:
Originally posted by Todd A:
My criticism of Paul Lewis is that he is a mediocrity as a pianist and ends there.

I seriously doubt you have the musical capacity to make that judgment.

So you are a classical music fans who prefers a more insular world. That’s fine, but such an approach doesn’t help the art form you so enjoy.

Insular? I'm giving Paul Lewis a shot, and he won't be the last.

I'm doing no harm to the world of music. You are causing damage with your judgmental prose.

Send me one of your short stories and let me see what I can do with it.

--

Posted on: 03 August 2009 by Todd A

quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
You are causing damage with your judgmental prose.

Your evidence for the damage I am causing is what exactly? Please, don't be shy and point to concrete evidence that I am doing damage because of my posting - you know, drops in CD sales, concert ticket sales, people stating that they are no longer listening to classical music, composers giving up their craft (I have written mean things about Thomas Ades before, after all) because of Todd A. This is a very serious charge, and you are certainly to be taken very seriously, so you must have the evidence.

Also, please don't be shy and start that fire by rubbing two sentences together. Today, right now. Share with everyone your literary prowess. I surely hope it strikes your fancy!

--

Posted on: 03 August 2009 by mikeeschman

Time to go to bed.

I am satisfied. You acknowledged a complete lack of musical and narrative "chops". That's enough of a disclaimer for me.

With luck, we can simply avoid each other in future. I certainly intend to.

Good night.

Posted on: 03 August 2009 by Todd A

quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Time to go to bed.

I am satisfied. You acknowledged a complete lack of musical and narrative "chops". That's enough of a disclaimer for me.

With luck, we can simply avoid each other in future. I certainly intend to.

Good night.

Where are your two sentences that will set a fire? Where is your evidence that I am causing damage? Just a feeble response. Oh well.

--

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Earwicker

Blimey, I'm glad I went to bed!!

Before I did though, I had a listen to this, which finally arrived yesterday:

Absolutely blew me away! And I'll tell you what, she's still a peach for an old bird!

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Geoff P

Ordered!...I am drooling in anticipation of it's arrival.
Going to see Mullova with Wispelway in concert. Trouble is it's not until next May but only just got a seat in time.

I have this on order aswell:

Rumoured to be very good. I wonder how it will stand up against the Fischer

regards
Geoff

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by mikeeschman

quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:

Geoff, you mind reporting on these before I spend more money?

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Earwicker

Yes, I want Angela Hewitt's remake of the 48 too. I liked her first recordings but I've got to say I found them just a bit disappointing after having heard her play live. In fairness it had something to do with Hyperion's engineering which conspired to lend the proceedings a certain dullness. I'd love the new set, but like Mike, I need to keep my spending under control!!

Anyway, Mike, you've got a truly sublime recording of the 48 on the way anyway, that'll keep you going for the moment. If you haven't heard the Sonatas and Partitas, then they should be a priority. The D minor chaconne from the D minor partita - the everest of the violin repertoire! - is one of the finest compositions ever. You can probably download the track from Amazon if you want a little taster for a dollar or so; Amazon's MP3s are at V0 via the LAME codec, i.e. fantastic.

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by mikeeschman

quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
Anyway, Mike, you've got a truly sublime recording of the 48 on the way anyway, that'll keep you going for the moment. If you haven't heard the Sonatas and Partitas, then they should be a priority.

I have two sets of the sonatas and partitas, Perlman and Sholmo Mintz. The Perlman is quite good, but I really have no reference point to compare it to. I am wild about Mintz playing Paganini, but his reading of the Bach sounds too romantic - way to much rubato for Bach.

So I would love to have a third set that I really love, that sounds like Bach, and that truly illuminates one of my favorite pieces of music.

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Earwicker

quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I am wild about Mintz playing Paganini, but his reading of the Bach sounds too romantic - way to much rubato for Bach.

So I would love to have a third set that I really love, that sounds like Bach, and that truly illuminates one of my favorite pieces of music.

Blimey, that being the case do not hesitate to snap up the Mullova set when funds allow. Meantime have a listen to the samples on Amazon or maybe treat yourself to a sneaky MP3 - her first recording of the Chaconne was easily the best out there and it just got better. It's too hard for most professional violinists to play with real control, but Mullova has it mastered in every single regard. She is peerless.

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Geoff P

Mike / EW

Will report as requested though it maybe a little while since it takes a fair time to get thru' the 48 properly.

I am very very lucky to have a beautifull LP set of the 48 in pristine condition which I came by from our friend George. They are played on harpsichord by Helmut Walcha spread over 9 sides. Issued in 1961 by EMI.. great recording ambiance aswell.

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As for the Violin Sonatas & Partitas I have a 3 LP set by this gentleman:

Which is very very good so I am looking forward to comparing the Mullova.

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EW I have a short video of Mullova playing the Chaconne recorded from a BBC4 tv series which is breathtaking both musically and technically. My e-mail is in my profile if you want more 'detail'

regards
geoff

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Earwicker

quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
My e-mail is in my profile if you want more 'detail'

Thanks Geoff, you have email

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by mikeeschman

This is the most frustrating aspect of our hobby. I have ordered CDs and sheet music and must wait.

Before hurricane Katrina, I could have gone downtown and bought it all on the spot.

Not any more.

I think the Bach Brandenbergs are going to be pressed into service tonight.

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Earwicker

Well as I say, Amazon's MP3s are fabulous quality if you're impatient and your PC is through the hi-fi, equipped with a nice soundcard...

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by mikeeschman

quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
Well as I say, Amazon's MP3s are fabulous quality if you're impatient and your PC is through the hi-fi, equipped with a nice soundcard...

I write computer programs for a living since 1972. The thought of having it invade my listening room is profoundly saddening :-)

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by 555

For me computers = work, so know what you mean Mike.
However we know that first the dinosaurs came & then they died out.
I think it's in my interests to keep an eye on the CA developments.

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by Earwicker

quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I write computer programs for a living since 1972. The thought of having it invade my listening room is profoundly saddening :-)

It'll sadden you less when you hear the sound! A soundcard that'll cost you a couple of hundred dollars will blow away seriously expensive CD players, and that's before you consider the convenience of PC audio. I use an Asus Essence STX now, and it is a marvel.

Posted on: 04 August 2009 by pe-zulu

quote:
Originally posted by Todd A:
I saw Paul Lewis' recordings mentioned previously. It's a great set for those who like their Beethoven dull. The praise heaped upon Lewis by Gramophone is one of the worst cases of British magazines over-praising British artists I've yet seen. He's a mediocrity that will fade into oblivion before his career is over.

Dear Todd

Being someone who has investigated Beethoven piano sonata sets in equal measure as you, I have read your words during the years about the different sets with great interest, and I very often agree with your points of view. Your words were decisive in prompting me to acquire the Annie Fischer set, what I never have regretted, even if I do not rank her above (eg) Kempff, Backhaus, Arrau or Heidsieck - to name some. But in the case of Paul Lewis I think you are going too far. Lewis is a most introvert player and stresses first and foremost the beauty of the music. In this respect he is rather similar to Kempff, but I also agree that Kempff´s sense of structure and musical balance and pace is far superior to Lewis´. But to dismiss Lewis as boring is unjust. My experience with Lewis is that I like him more with repeated listening. I know well, that it is difficult to listen profoundly to >50 complete sets, but this is why I often prefer to keep my initial impressions back, especially if they are unfavorable.

ATB,

Posted on: 05 August 2009 by Todd A

quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
My experience with Lewis is that I like him more with repeated listening.

My experience is the opposite. I never listen to any recording only once, and when I find my appreciation of an artist's approach changing (as with Brendel in his second cycle) I'll point it out. With Lewis, that hasn't happened. Indeed, taking his Op 31 recording in particular, each subsequent listen has made me like his approach less and less.

I don't like everything and feel no need to try to like everything. Maybe that works for some people, and more power to 'em. There's no objective truth when it comes to musical performance. (Well, maybe with some Conlon Nancarrow there is.) I don't pretend that there is.

I will say that I’m always amused at how defensive some people get when specific artists are criticized. It’s as though they think that the artist cares about such criticism, or that such criticism somehow invalidates their (the defensive person’s) taste, or that it is attacking something as nebulous and non-existent as some musical truth. It does no such thing. It does point out a few other things, including how attached people are to facsimiles of music (ie, recordings).

--

Posted on: 05 August 2009 by Earwicker

quote:
Originally posted by Todd A:
I don't like everything and feel no need to try to like everything.

Again well spoken, but I think your comments are sometimes a reaction against other critics' opinions, especially with Paul Lewis. I had another listen to his 109,110,111 disc last night, and it's very far from being "mediocre" or "weak" or "dull" to pick and choose between your adjectives. The Gramophone reviews are bullshitty as hell - he does not surpass Brendel, Gilels, or Kempff, but he runs them a close second. It's musicianly, clear, very well played and thought out, and the recorded sound is nice too. In detail his interpretations are close to Brendel's 3rd recording of these works, in fact people who find Brendel's take too strongly characterised will do well to give Lewis a try. Best ever, greater than the greats etc.? Nah. But he's still excellent and worth a listen.

I wonder if you sometimes feel compelled to slam recordings almost universally acknowledged to be of the highest order, like Brendel's live Hammerklavier, or Gilels's for DG?

Posted on: 05 August 2009 by soundsreal

I'm totally bored with Beethoveen thanks to all of Mike's threads, so I'll comment on PC audio. Yes, it is indeed where things are headed. The days of $20k cd players are definitely grinding to a halt. Many people I know are selling and switching to notebooks. Well, just think of all the Beethoveen you can have at the flick of a button.

Posted on: 05 August 2009 by mikeeschman

quote:
Originally posted by soundsreal:
I'm totally bored with Beethoveen thanks to all of Mike's threads

:-)

Posted on: 05 August 2009 by soundsreal

It did make me laugh, though, I was driving earlier and had the classical station on, and next piece here comes a Beethoven sonata....I'm cursed!