Dealer Demo's
Posted by: Naheed on 06 June 2002
Given the warm-up periods to attain optimal performance, which seems to vary considerably for Naim components (flatcap - supercap), is there any real benefit to be gained from cold dealer demo's...
Yes - i suppose we can ball-park gain a sense of improvement (or lack of it), but given boxes like the 52, Supercap, XPS, etc... take so long to warm-up can a real decision be taken from this ?
I mean this in terms of the suprise when a box actually settles down and overwhelms you with improvements versus a cold dealer demo...
Some of the better dealers generally leave Naim gear powered up, but most of these muppets don't.
Personally i think this applies to home demo's as well - which are generally 2-3 days.
I guess what i'm alluding to is, are people (and i have been) sometimes unconvinced by certain upgrades do to this phenonmenon ?
naheed...
Yes - i suppose we can ball-park gain a sense of improvement (or lack of it), but given boxes like the 52, Supercap, XPS, etc... take so long to warm-up can a real decision be taken from this ?
I mean this in terms of the suprise when a box actually settles down and overwhelms you with improvements versus a cold dealer demo...
Some of the better dealers generally leave Naim gear powered up, but most of these muppets don't.
Personally i think this applies to home demo's as well - which are generally 2-3 days.
I guess what i'm alluding to is, are people (and i have been) sometimes unconvinced by certain upgrades do to this phenonmenon ?
naheed...
Posted on: 06 June 2002 by Laurie Saunders
I agree totally....the same principal applies to Hi-Fi shows...with the added problem of lots of other (noisy) kit running from the same mains supply.That is why I have now stopped going to Hi-Fi shows and why any dealer dem is barely worth the trouble. That, as you suggest, leaves us with a problem......how to appraise a new peice of kit. I believe that to make tis judgement, I need to live with it in my system for at least a couple of weeks...more if it is brand new. A home loan for a weekend is almost useless. One (reputable) dealer recently suggested that I should come to the shop and bring my amp and speakers along to assess a new CD playe(!!!)
He declined to give me a home dem, and when I asked what would happen if after the (allowed) weekend I had changed my mind, he said I could change it for something else(no refund!!!)
That was for aprospective £2.5k spend.
This is a really serious issue; perhaps Naim could exert some influence here. The risk involved in these very expensive purchases is too heavily weighted against the customer, in my view.
The problem is now even worse with cartridges...how do you get to test a proper run in sample(50 hours plus) Luckily, in my case I was able to borrow a well run in sample at home for at least a month, but I have a vey accomodating dealer(Progressive Audio, Kent)
Best wishes
Laurie S
He declined to give me a home dem, and when I asked what would happen if after the (allowed) weekend I had changed my mind, he said I could change it for something else(no refund!!!)
That was for aprospective £2.5k spend.
This is a really serious issue; perhaps Naim could exert some influence here. The risk involved in these very expensive purchases is too heavily weighted against the customer, in my view.
The problem is now even worse with cartridges...how do you get to test a proper run in sample(50 hours plus) Luckily, in my case I was able to borrow a well run in sample at home for at least a month, but I have a vey accomodating dealer(Progressive Audio, Kent)
Best wishes
Laurie S
Posted on: 06 June 2002 by Naheed
I found Musical Images in Covent Garden the worst dealer in all respects, a piss poor demo room (or closet), and attitude (home demo, etc..) to match.
I remember my 2nd Naim purchase from Lintone Audio in Gatehead, i only intended to buy a cd3/92 combo. The gear was ALL pre-warmed (not sure how long), excellent demo room, loads of consultation/advice - in the end i left with CDi/72/Flatcap !!!
I've seen some dealer ads stating Naim Gear permanently on display (powered and ready to go - i assume)
naheed...
I remember my 2nd Naim purchase from Lintone Audio in Gatehead, i only intended to buy a cd3/92 combo. The gear was ALL pre-warmed (not sure how long), excellent demo room, loads of consultation/advice - in the end i left with CDi/72/Flatcap !!!
I've seen some dealer ads stating Naim Gear permanently on display (powered and ready to go - i assume)
naheed...
Posted on: 06 June 2002 by Ed R
Naheed,
Have you found any dealers worth persevering with in London?
I was due at Thomas Heinitz this afternoon to listen to various bits but they blew me out at the last minute. I managed to sneak a listen to a CD5 at Musical Images, which was no mean achievement given the notice they had, but ultimately, underwhelming!
Regards,
Ed.
Have you found any dealers worth persevering with in London?
I was due at Thomas Heinitz this afternoon to listen to various bits but they blew me out at the last minute. I managed to sneak a listen to a CD5 at Musical Images, which was no mean achievement given the notice they had, but ultimately, underwhelming!
Regards,
Ed.
Posted on: 07 June 2002 by Laurie Saunders
I would echo the above comments on Musical Images in Covent Garden.
The above comments regarding the cost to dealers of giving home dems.....this is exactly my point....Naim Audio must realise that their kit is hypersensitive to warm up....it surely must be in their interest that potential customers can achieve satisfactory demonstrations...perhaps they may consider providing dem equipment to dealers on a cost attracive basis.
Regarding Graham`s in London....I`ve had two dems there. I was allowed a whole morning each time, provided with coffee, treated like a VIP. The first dem was quite good, though the second produced a sound that really did not match what I can achieve at home (with very similar kit)...one of the CD players I wanted to hear (I had booked the dem several weeks in advance) "went missing" and a brand new one was taken out of the box. The L/R channels were also mixed up, and the B&W 801s wobbled severely....I guess they just had a bad day.They were always very couteous and willing to spend as long as it took to satisfy me. Having said that, a Naim dem in c1993 in Rayleigh Hi-Fi left a very bad taste. This was during the period when Linn purged many of its "less loyal" dealers. I went in to hear the (then) fairly new 82/180 (I think?!) and was wheeled into a dem room where Activ Keltiks were obviously on permanent dem. (driven I think by Karik/Numerik Kairn/LK100s(?))
Anyway I thought the sound was just about the worst I`d ever heard (several revisits to this kit confirmed my opinion) and told the demonstrator so ( in the politest of terms)...he however would not accept this and implied that I had defective hearing, and seemed reluctant to allow me to move on to hear what I had originally come for, until I conced that the Linn system had some merit(I found it hard to think of anything positive to say).Eventually (after several hours of verbal fencing, I was permitted to hear the Naim kit (driving ES14s).....it was like a breath of fresh air...infinitely more musical etc. The look of utter disgust on the demonstrator`s face said it all. I have never returned there for a dem, though I believe that particular employee no longer works for the shop. In fact that experience put me off dems at Naim/Linn dealers for many years
Anyone else out there had the"Linn treatment" in the early 90s?
Cheers Laurie S
The above comments regarding the cost to dealers of giving home dems.....this is exactly my point....Naim Audio must realise that their kit is hypersensitive to warm up....it surely must be in their interest that potential customers can achieve satisfactory demonstrations...perhaps they may consider providing dem equipment to dealers on a cost attracive basis.
Regarding Graham`s in London....I`ve had two dems there. I was allowed a whole morning each time, provided with coffee, treated like a VIP. The first dem was quite good, though the second produced a sound that really did not match what I can achieve at home (with very similar kit)...one of the CD players I wanted to hear (I had booked the dem several weeks in advance) "went missing" and a brand new one was taken out of the box. The L/R channels were also mixed up, and the B&W 801s wobbled severely....I guess they just had a bad day.They were always very couteous and willing to spend as long as it took to satisfy me. Having said that, a Naim dem in c1993 in Rayleigh Hi-Fi left a very bad taste. This was during the period when Linn purged many of its "less loyal" dealers. I went in to hear the (then) fairly new 82/180 (I think?!) and was wheeled into a dem room where Activ Keltiks were obviously on permanent dem. (driven I think by Karik/Numerik Kairn/LK100s(?))
Anyway I thought the sound was just about the worst I`d ever heard (several revisits to this kit confirmed my opinion) and told the demonstrator so ( in the politest of terms)...he however would not accept this and implied that I had defective hearing, and seemed reluctant to allow me to move on to hear what I had originally come for, until I conced that the Linn system had some merit(I found it hard to think of anything positive to say).Eventually (after several hours of verbal fencing, I was permitted to hear the Naim kit (driving ES14s).....it was like a breath of fresh air...infinitely more musical etc. The look of utter disgust on the demonstrator`s face said it all. I have never returned there for a dem, though I believe that particular employee no longer works for the shop. In fact that experience put me off dems at Naim/Linn dealers for many years
Anyone else out there had the"Linn treatment" in the early 90s?
Cheers Laurie S
Posted on: 07 June 2002 by John Sheridan
quote:
I've also found that dealers treat random people walking in off the street a lot differently than people they've got to recognise and know.
not very good business sense. Musical Images did this to me... I'll NEVER set foot in the place again. Same goes for most other London dealers. If they don't want to give me the time of day, I sure as hell am not going to give them my money.
Posted on: 07 June 2002 by Bruce Woodhouse
My rule of thumb has been that if it sounds pretty good at the dealer it will sound fabulous at home. When I am spending 2-3k on a component i expect a home dem. Dealers dems are useful to compare 2 or 3 options in terms of different style/character etc but final decisions need extended dems in my own room as far as i am concerned. This is not knocking the dealer dem at any specific shop, just that they can never reproduce the experience.
Bruce
Bruce
Posted on: 07 June 2002 by Mr_Sukebe
I recently had dealings with Audio T in Enfield.
Overall, good service, although the amps were all stone cold in the dem room (tried 4 different manufacturers, no clues as to which won).
From a personal service level, they were really good, more than happy to let me have a home dem.
Overall, good service, although the amps were all stone cold in the dem room (tried 4 different manufacturers, no clues as to which won).
From a personal service level, they were really good, more than happy to let me have a home dem.
Posted on: 09 June 2002 by Ed R
I wasn't really having a pop at Musical Images as I managed to get the dem. with only a couple of hors notice. In fairness, I also twisted their arms into letting me hear the CD5 against the Linn Genki and that was handy for finding out how rough sounding the Genki is.
My question about London dealers was based on the fact that you have a choice of location. I work in London and have, say, half a dozen to choose from which are more convenient than my "home" dealer in Northampton.
Finding out by trial and error seemed to be the only way, but others' experiences can be a very useful gauge of what to expect.
Regards,
Ed.
My question about London dealers was based on the fact that you have a choice of location. I work in London and have, say, half a dozen to choose from which are more convenient than my "home" dealer in Northampton.
Finding out by trial and error seemed to be the only way, but others' experiences can be a very useful gauge of what to expect.
Regards,
Ed.