Musical key characteristics

quote:

You almost prove against your case by saying there is a difference [clearly only the pitch] but then do not say what [apart from the pitch] what the difference is.

It's in the first sentence of my above post

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
The only difference between the overtones on a well regulated piano tuned in even temoerament is the [relative highness or lowness of] pitch as the piano has a completely chromatic tuning scheme which favours no particular key or note, and the mathematics of the relations of any chord at a similar interval is in formula the same. Thus the only realistic difference is the actual pitch.

It is not true on a well-regulated even-tempered tuned piano the only difference would be the pitch. The harmonic overtones ARE different.

The simplest way to prove this is simply to listen. Like what we do in hifi Step up to a piano, and play a major third. C and Bb too far away harmonically? Feel free to play F and/or G. Not only listen to the frequency of the harmonics, but also listen to the ENVELOPE of the harmonics.

It is VERY clear that the harmonics are NOT the same.

I'm even able to hear this on a recorded piece of piano. Even on well regulated concert pianos. Steinway D in particular (I've only heard recorded and sampled ones, have never played one), has a peculiar "deadness" around Bb above middle C.

Yamaha uprights (I've played YM5s, U1, and YUS5) have a particular "ring" around F# below middle C.

As for the "why" question? It's the material and construction of the instrument.

quote:

you actually miss the vital issue in this and that is the issue of modulation, or changing of key. B Flat is rather a long way harmonically from C so if you play one before the other [either way round] of course the ear feels the tonality wrenched from C to B Flat or vice versa.

As above, feel free to use other chords. Even octaves (say C3-E3 and C4-E4) will give the same result.

You mention the maths are the same. Yes the maths, but it certainly does not work like that, at least not in an acoustic instrument. We can get close with a synths producing sine waves, but even then there are distortions.

quote:

Try the same thing on various violins for example, and the effective changes will be more similar than the differences caused by the individuality of the instrements, and hence the significance of key to music played on the violins group of instruments [as explained already].

I agree they are similar ... but NOT the same, as maths would have us believe.

quote:

The effect of shifting the harmonics of the open strings does have an effect on the result, which is the explanation for the scheme in the first place.

My point exactly.

However, the HARMONICS effect is not only on the open string, but also on barred notes/chords.

Think SRV or Tony Iommi

Dear Asp,

The mathematic relationship of similar intervals of the musical scales on an instrument, tuned with even temperament, of different keys [ie. starting from different tonic notes] are similar because the same mathematical equation governs then, but you will not catch me calling them the same because they are at a different pitch as related by the interval of the tonic notes of the keys in consideration.

As harmonics are governed by the natural harmonic series, they follow on from the fundamental of the sounded note in a predictable fashion. I could explain it but will merely say that the first overtone is at the octave above, the second at the fifth above that etc, ...

Therefore the harmonic series on any given note will be found to be one predictable series of pitches, and on a note, one major second above for example, will also be found as another series of pitches one major second above the previous one - similar, not the same, and differentiated by pitch alone...

If B Flat is harmonically distant from C, then F is similarly distant from G. Both pairs are a major second apart.

On your observations of tonal uneven-ness on various pianos: Of course there are pianos with relatively dead notes and also relatively strong or bright notes. This is actually a fault, and shows that the piano is either a poor instrument or not adequately regulated.

If you are listening to a record of these instruments, then be very careful of this being a fault in the piano at all. It is more likely to be a fault in the replay set or the basic recording.

I do not doubt that certain keys may speak to you in certain ways, even on a perfectly regulated piano. You would not be the only person who finds this, but it is not a Universal reaction - the same in every single case. If it exists, then it is more likely to be related to the conditioning of knowing music in this or that key which composers have employed in music of this style or that, with some consistency. Each composer individually used certain keys in individual ways, individual to their own style, and not Universal. Thus if you love Beethoven, your feeling about D minor may well be conditioned differently than if your main love is Mozart, who used the key very differently.

I am sorry that in reality every point I have made here is one already made in my posts earlier.

However you raise another point, which requires a fresh answer. You suggest that the same interval in the same key, but at a different octave sounds different. I agree that it is different in pitch, but not in nature. If it were then say D minor above middle C would have a different ambience compaired D minor below middle C. Clearly this is not the case, and this demonstrated by the fact that, for example Mozart's D minor music [within an individual piece, but also to a surprising degree between many different pieces as well] has the same ambience whether the lines happen to fall above or below middle C. In fact I can think of no piece of music which conforms to your notion that the octave in any given key alters the emotional or expressive aspect in the music. Please do listen to the D Minor Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, as already mentioned in this thread. It has a remarkable consistency of expressive effect and nature right through, and shows a great composer making very characterful use of a musical key [obviously with modulatios] and also showing a close similarity of effect or mood to the other pieces I mentioned earlier from Mozart in D Minor in terms of expressive effect. In this case it instructive to consider where the changes of emtional effect and instrumental colour come from - the music's own nature, the piano, or the orchestral instruments. Could the concerto be played in C Minor? What would the effect of this be? Where would the greatest change of expressive effect occur? Would any changes, apart from a lowering of pitch by a major second throughout, occur at all?

I am afraid I am still at a loss to know how the so called dead notes on a Steinway "D" are in anyway any more Universally applicable than the bright notes in a Yamaha? It sounds entirely random to me. No piano maker aims to make an uneven instrument with dead or bright notes, specific ones or random ones ... But that it happens is easily explained as with all man-made things there are flaws! These are indeed random.

If you persist in the view that there are Universal colours to the keys in even temperament, would please let me know how these apply to some of the more normal keys, and some of the less.

Perphaps you could explain, within the confines of a keyboard tuned in even temperament, what are musical key characteristic of C Major, D Major, G Major, and for some much less usual keys, especially B Flat Minor, G Flat Major, and F Sharp Major? On a violin they have quite different qualities, but I am very interested to read what the characters of these various keys are in an even temperament tuned keyboard? For example what would be the effect of [in isolation, and not following on from one another] playing a piece on the piano written in G Flat Major in G major? Especially not telling the listener? There is an answer to this, but I shall be interested in your take on it.

Sorry to seem to want to dig further into your points, but this is a valid issue, in my view.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
The mathematic relationship of similar intervals of the musical scales on an instrument, tuned with even temperament, of different keys [ie. starting from different tonic notes] are similar because the same mathematical equation governs then

In a perfect world, yes. In real life, no.

quote:

As harmonics are governed by the natural harmonic series, they follow on from the fundamental of the sounded note in a predictable fashion. I could explain it but will merely say that the first overtone is at the octave above, the second at the fifth above that etc, ...

Again, only true in a perfect world. As you mentioned later in your post, clearly it is affected by the instrument itself (shape, size, material, workmanship, etc).

A standalone stretched perfectly vibrating string in a totally dead room will produce this characteristic. Put that string in an instrument, however, then the equation falls apart.

If as you say "the first overtone is at the octave above, the second at the fifth above that etc" is ALWAYS true, then a Stradivarius will sound the same as an ES335 (without the amp of course) ... or, on a more serious note (pun intended!), each Stradivarius would sound the same.

Another example would be using the same guitar with same string gauge but different string brand. They will sound different because the harmonic overtones are different even if you play the same note.

quote:

If B Flat is harmonically distant from C, then F is similarly distant from G. Both pairs are a major second apart.

I was referring to playing C-E and F-A, or C-E and G-B ... not F-A and G-B.

quote:

If you are listening to a record of these instruments, then be very careful of this being a fault in the piano at all. It is more likely to be a fault in the replay set or the basic recording.

I hear this almost (surely there are differences between Steinway Ds) consistently even with different recordings and different playback equipment.

I also hear it almost consistently with sampled Steinway D wether on a hardware synth (with Korgs being the "worst" offender) or soft synth (Coakley, PMI), the effects which are more repeatable when MIDIed.

Keep in mind that I have never played a real one, however.

quote:

Each composer individually used certain keys in individual ways, individual to their own style, and not Universal. Thus if you love Beethoven, your feeling about D minor may well be conditioned differently than if your main love is Mozart, who used the key very differently.

I should feel stupid for saying this after all my posts ... but ... I guess it boils down to this point.

A key does not define "feel." It's more on how you use it.

Just like saying a minor scale is used for conveying sad feeling. Well, one listen to Enter Sandman tells me otherwise! (although I'm sure if you squint hard enough you'll find something sad in that song too!)

However my understanding of the original question was about the same song played in the same instrument but in a different key.

quote:

Perphaps you could explain, within the confines of a keyboard tuned in even temperament, what are musical key characteristic of C Major, D Major, G Major, and for some much less usual keys, especially B Flat Minor, G Flat Major, and F Sharp Major? On a violin they have quite different qualities, but I am very interested to read what the characters of these various keys are in an even temperament tuned keyboard? For example what would be the effect of [in isolation, and not following on from one another] playing a piece on the piano written in G Flat Major in G major? Especially not telling the listener? There is an answer to this, but I shall be interested in your take on it.

Obviously you already have a predetermined (is that the word?) answer to this question

But here goes ...


Some clarifications:

1. My point above regarding more on how you use the keys stands

2. It is based on the instrument I'm most familiar with, a Yamaha upright which gets tuned roughly every 3 months

3. Playing music I like, which sadly is not classical (mostly straightforward jazz standard, reinterpreted fusion, and local and English pop songs)

4. Yes, imo the effect is not universal, a different instrument will give a different result (my Yamaha S90ES synth or CG60 guitar for instance). A guitar is worse than a piano: different fingering of the same chord, or the same note but played on different string, will give a different "feel".


The following keys give open, airy, straightforward sound: C major (and its natural minor A minor), F major (and D minor), G major (and E minor). The best keys when you want to stack those chords

My favourite key for expressive piece of music is A major (F# minor), and E major (C# minor). Words I would use to describe it: characterful, colourful, expressive, yet speaks clearly when chorded sparsely.

Blues clearly sounds best in Bb. This is also true with our guitarist's guitar though for some reason. Play it in C and it won't sound bluesy anymore. Strangely, minor blues needs to be played in Bb minor instead of the related G minor.

I am ambiguous when it comes to C# major, B major, F# major, and their natural minors. Can't really put a finger on it.

I would like to address this one separately.

quote:

However you raise another point, which requires a fresh answer. You suggest that the same interval in the same key, but at a different octave sounds different. I agree that it is different in pitch, but not in nature.

(cut)

it instructive to consider where the changes of emtional effect and instrumental colour come from - the music's own nature, the piano, or the orchestral instruments

(cut)

Would any changes, apart from a lowering of pitch by a major second throughout, occur at all?

On a piano, I am absolutely confident that the answer is yes, there will be a difference, and it is caused by the instrument.

Putting aside the issue of higher pitch (is this even possible?), the reason for this is because the note ENVELOPE of the instrument also changes: both the decay envelope, and the dynamic envelope.


An example:

Set your metronome to medium tempo, say around 90 bpm. Then hit a 2-octave F triad in the middle of the piano as hard as you can, and sustain it for 3 measures. Easy ...

Now play the same chord at the top octave at full pelt too. You will clearly hear the notes decay much more quickly


Another example:

Imagine Mark King doing the thing he does on his bass' low strings, live! Now imagine him doing the same thing but 3 octaves higher. His sound won't have the same "punch" (e.g. dynamic envelope)


Another example for classical music (I'm probably digging a hole here since I'm not really into clasical )

Imagine a huge timpani roll.

Now imagine if we change the timpani into something with a diameter of, say, 10" while making sure it's tuned to an octave multiple of the original timpani.

Surely the emotional impact will be different?

Dear Asp,

You raise some important points that are indeed part of real-life music making, such as piano construction, and its remaining flaws, as well as some crucial points about the harmonic series, and the contrasting timbres of different instrument playing the same notes which are of course largely differentiated by the way the fundamantal and overtones are pperceived ...

I shall attempt an answer tomorrow, but it cannot be so short as all that I am sorry to say!

Dear Milo,

I also have a few thought for you as well, again for tomorrow.

ATB from George