Whither Naim?

Posted by: Alex S. on 24 February 2002

I have the utmost respect for Naim as a company, its products and its people, so what follows is not a critisism but an observation from a personal perspective.

I think this is the year that Naim left me behind. At Bristol I noticed the signs of a very sensible two pronged attack in two areas were I have no great interest: AV and 'High End'.

A centre channel, a sub to follow, a newish processor, all this speaks for itself and will bring Naim a great deal of success. At 5 Series level it will tempt many away from Arcam and below. It will look impressive, sound impressive and be a veritable lifestyle statement. It interests me not one jot.

The 500 and 552 interest me more. I note the following: 1. No upgrade path from previous products, 2. Casework that does not look like Mr Tibbs did it (who spotted the Supercap in the AV room, it looked sad, but was no doubt doing wonders for the sound), 3. Big price tags, 4. All the Naim dynamics, pace and timing with added hi-fi - much more space around instruments, depth, soundstaging, blah, blah. This looks very obviously to me like a head-on attempt to fight Krell, Levinson et al on their home turf. Good Luck! But I have neither the inclination nor the wallet to jump on board.

As I say, this is just a personal feeling. I'm sure many of you will disagree, and if I win the lottery I might sign up again, although I suspect that any future changes of mine would involve valves.

I hope here to start a debate rather than an argument.

Alex

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Paul B

I think you may be right. The 552/500 are not really replacements for the older gear but a completely new direction (the "high end" in both performance and price) for Naim and no doubt intended to compete with Levinsons and Krells. Linn has done much the same.

I noted too the lack of compatibility of the 552 and Supercap. I was hoping that the 52 might be a stepping stone to the 552. For myself, and many others the traditional upgrade path will still end with the 52. I certainly hope that Naim will continue to make the 52.

I am a little disappointed that there is still no new amp at a lower price (about half!) to the 500 that would perhaps be a replacement for the 250 but might allow an upgrade path to the 500. I had hoped for this - perhaps in the future it will appear. It is also possible that the 552 technology will be utilized in a new 52 replacement that will allow for upgrades with the newer power supply.

Could someone (from Naim) please explain the technical aspects of the new 552 as it appears to be a break in design from the older preamps (or is that impression quite wrong).

Paul

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by ejl

The price differential between new Naim top-end gear and what went before it has always been high. Compare the price of the 52 when it was introduced to that of the 32-5 and other pre amps of the late-80s/early 90s. The differential was, I believe, pretty substantial then too. Nor was the 52 power supply especially backwards-compatible -- it was backwards-compatible, but you lost a lot of what it offered.

In the past new developments in Naim's top-end pre amps have trickled-down to more affordable gear (52=>82=>102, etc.). I expect the same thing to happen here. Maybe also with the 500.

As far as the AV stuff goes, I suspect it's a strategic decision on Naim's part to try to maintain flexibility and a broader customer base in the face of a changing and unpredictable consumer audio technology scene. Who knows how many channels might be expected of a hi-fi set in a few years. The fact is that if Naim's customer base got too narrow it would be unable to fund the R&D needed to remain competetive even on the stereo-only front. So although most of us probably don't find the AV stuff interesting, it may help Naim maintain themselves as an innovative stereo manufacturer long-term.

So although I'm not happy to see the new high prices, I guess I'm not that worried about them either.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by ken c

i too hope there will be an upgrade path from 52 towards 552, perpaps in 2 steps as in the 82 to 52.

i was hoping there would be a new power amp -- a poor man's 500 if you will. in fact, i had heard rumours to that effect. i hope this is still true.

the small step upgrade strategies that naim has provided up to now has worked very well for them -i hope this will remain a key part of their offerings across their product spectrum.

i believe there is a completely separate position for the sl2 in their product range -- and i think this speaker might well prove to be a real winner.

overall, the impressions of new naim gear appear to be very positive, although we are hearing less today than yesterday...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Andrew L. Weekes

Interesting thoughts, Alex.

I have to confess an interest in the AV stuff, although I'm not prepared to compromise my main stereo system, and adding extra speakers into the one room I have available will inevitably do this.

At a later date though I'd consider it as a happy 5-series user.

As Paul Stephenson himself has quoted 'We've always offered people good reasons to buy the equipment, we now need to remove the reasons for not buying it'.

It's a shame price doesn't come into that equation

It's an inevitable step for Naim, bearing in mind my own dealers comments that in AV he feels he has, for the first time in years, a product with a wide interest where a lot of value can be added.

Many people think nothing of spending thousands on AV / Home Cinema, but are reluctant to do so on just music replay - sad but true.

At the other end of the scale though I do feel left out. I'm not even in 52 territory so to hear of another boxed set of switches / buffer amps and volume controls for a five figure sum leaves me more than a little disinterested. How it sounds is completely irrelevant to me.

The favourable comments with regard to how good it sounds leave me thinking 'so it bloody well should!'. I'd love to know how any product whose basic parts are so simple, can ever justify the price beign asked for the 552. 11k buys an awful lot of babysitting time and concert tickets

I suspect that this product is aimed slightly differently though - phono sockets are there to broaden appeal to the intended market. It's no secret, for example, that Linn's CD12 was not really aimed at the UK, the market is too small. Hence it was released in other countries before the UK. It is, I suspect, the future. Naim need to maintain a succesful business, and one cannot do this without a market to sell to.

The aesthetic differences between the 500 and 52 must have been a significant factor in raison d'etre for the 552.

It is frustrating though to find nothing of interest to those of us at the lower ends of the Naim food chain. A significant part of the drive to develop newer and better products comes from competition. I suspect that in many areas Naim can rest on their laurels at this end as, IMHO, they offer some of the best sounds I've heard at the price. It would be nice though to offer some development in order to keep themselves ahead. The inevitable compromises at these levels can be addressed so inexpensively, in some products, that I do find it frustrating to realise how a significant proportion of a products potential performance is reduced. If no-one is biting their heels though, why bother?

It's a sad reflection on the rest of the industry more than anything, if the systems I heard at the London show where anything to go by.

Certainly having heard other manufacturers products in the mid-range that I would really enjoy I'll certainly be demming more varieties and flavours when the time comes.

Meanwhile, I'll hope for some trickle-down...

Andy.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Dr. Exotica

quote:
The price differential between new Naim top-end gear and what went before it has always been high. Compare the price of the 52 when it was introduced to that of the 32-5 and other pre amps of the late-80s/early 90s. The differential was, I believe, pretty substantial then too.

Does anyone recall the prices for the 52 and 32-5 (prior to discontinuation in 1989) when the 52 was introduced in 1990? There are some good inflation calculators out there that allow you to see the prices in current terms:

Inflation calculator

Erik

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by J.N.

That's the bottom line.

If they can spread a little happiness along the way and keep people happy who bought kit 30 years ago, all the better.

This kinda service costs money and if the high-end/diversification keeps things afloat; it's OK by me.

Linn used to be great fun in the eighties. They had to get pretty hard-nosed and move on to survive.

The USA is one BIG marketplace.

What's next? A 'pretty' DBL2 at £20k?

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Not For Me

The day the 500 came out, my 135s' sunded a lot worse.

Suddenly my 52 sounds flat, because of a box in Bristol.

My Linn Karik / Numerik don't get used because there is a CD12 in a shop in a nearby town...

The point is, the gear you have will still do its job! Part of the fun is dreaming and planning for the next impossible upgrade.

Don't let it get you down.

David

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Paul Stephenson

Just back from the show, no s/cap was used in the av room thats a main hydra unit, the sound was great just with the series5 kit.
No attempt is being made to compete with krell/ levinson if you follow what we are about then the Nait takes care of that. Its the music we are after enjoy it for what it is.

We get accused of selling out at the bottom end and now at the top, well we are smiling not because of all the lovely dollars but beacuse of the sound we get to make at home!

Sorry I missed you at the show it would have been good to have a chat!

Full specs and info on 552 to follow as soon as we are ready.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by garyi

Although I understand what Alex is on about at the end of the day the kit sounded fantastic I would wish it for my own any day.

Of course it is expensive but like anything in life you pays yer money.

There are some sad facts to the male personality. Most people would look at 1000 to much to spend on a 'poxy' hi fi. Yet for some its perfectly resonable to spend this money. For others its perfectly exceptable to spend a million on a 'poxy' painting.

regarding the AV stuff, naim are a private company, they need to stay with the big boys in order to compete and not to become so majorly exclusive that all the money they take is from a minority of people who inhabit forums and goto hifi shows, I think in the end this is a good thing. I don't personally go in for films so am not interested in this area however many are and it will generate revenue for the company and insure that the kit we currently own can be serviced and have a good resale value for the future. And most importantly allow the R&D departement to continue to stay ahead of the game with great products as heard this weekend.

I may be biased but in my opinion nothing touched naim this weekend, and I for one am proud to be a little part of that.

Also the naim factory has been the way its been for years, they arn't expanding in a big way, like say Linn have done and show off about, I still believe naim make money, but in balance to keeping the business alive.

This is of course my own opinons and not based in 'Lawyer' facts.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Alex S.

If only a by-product of my listening to great music at home (or work) could be watching mountains of dollars grow. If Naim can remove money from former or potential Krell owners then so much the better for both Music and Naim.

I really wanted to meet/thank you at the show but you were not around for the forum dem - a fortuitous escape may I say ;-)

I'm not accusing Naim of anything, together with my wife, kids, wine, Stallion's posts and Arsenal FC they have given me more consistent pleasure than anything else.

Best regards,

Alex

BTW Sorry for implying that that S-Cap shaped box on the floor was an S-Cap.

Oh, and Gary, if you knew what my disposable income was you'd give me a medal for having a decent hi-fi at all! All the paintings on the walls I have to paint myself (sob).

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by ejl

quote:
At the other end of the scale though I do feel left out. I'm not even in 52 territory so to hear of another boxed set of switches / buffer amps and volume controls for a five figure sum leaves me more than a little disinterested. How it sounds is completely irrelevant to me

I suspect that a lot of people who like Naim gear are, like me, teachers or other public sector workers, and for us new top-end Naim equipment has always been out of reach. But this fact has neither bothers me nor leaves me disinterested in their new stuff, because Naim accomodates me better than almost any other hifi company, and for two reasons:

i. They apply the same high quality design and in-house construction to their their lower price-point products that they do to their top-end stuff. Few other manufacturers do this; i.e., both build to a variety of price-points and build everything in-house, with all of the quality control advantages that this provides. Can anyone name another high-end manufacturer that does both of these? There are a few, I suppose -- Bryston maybe, although they only build amps. Most, of course, do not.

ii. Naim services all of their old equipment. This means that someone like me can comfortably buy a top-end Naim system! My 32-5, HiCap, and 135s are top-of-the-line (for the 80's). I would never buy expensive older equipment from a company that had stopped servicing it. It doesn't really bother me that I don't have new top-end Naim for the 00's. I'll probably upgrade before long to a used 52, leaving me one generation behind their latest greatest, but so what? Since Naim will service my old gear; I get to play the game, buy their old best stuff, and not wreck my finances, which is great. This is why I'm interested in the 552; even though it would be years (a decade) before I would buy a (used) copy.

On the subject of service, I've probably bought a dozen or so Naim boxes over the years, and none were new. NANA and my Naim dealer nonetheless have treated my like a valued long-term customer. In contrast, some of the companies I bought new from now probably wouldn't give me the time of day.

So Alex, I'd be worried about Naim if:
a. They started producing some of their line out-of-house (like Linn has, e.g.), or,
b. They stopped servicing older gear (like Linn has, e.g.).
The high prices alone don't worry me.

quote:
the new 552 as it appears to be a break in design from the older preamps

A hypothesis: Could the 552 be using balanced connections, or has this been ruled-out already? If they are, it would probably explain why the 552 power supply isn't backwards-compatible.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by garyi

Alex I have no idea what you do professionally, but in a recent government led survay catering staff are the lowest paid people in Britain, this is behind dustmen.....

Thankgod for credit cards and the second hand market

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Andrew L. Weekes

ejl,

You're right and there is always the s/h route to Naim ownership, the fact that they support their older equipment longer than any manufacturer in any business I can think of is a credit to them, and a bonus to the financially restricted.

It cannot go on forever though, there's way too many obsolete parts in the older equipment. I wonder how that support affects the cost of new equipment. The stock holdings must look horrendous on the balance sheet!

That I was prepared to spend several thousand pounds on my 5 series is also an indication of the value I place on my music.

Naim will also be producing sub-assmeblies of newer systems out-of-house (e.g.AV2 circuit boards) since they don't have the capability in-house, but final assembly will, I suspect, remain there.

Like Alex my comments aren't really intended as criticism, just observations from my particular viewpoint, which is different from many.

I have my own views on the design work that's applied at the bottom end, relative to the top, but I'll keep them to myself

Andy.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Alex S.

I guess we'd better leave the income wars for another time but I doubt either of us would come out smelling of the green stuff.

For information, I restore antiques. It is a sad truth that in this country there is little regard for hand skills (other than in a very ancient profession), and little regard for antiques. A double blow for which I am most bitter. I left college the second time in '95 with a first class degree for which I was offered the princely sum of £4.50 per hour.

Nonetheless, now self-employed and ensconsed in my workshop I can listen to music 9 hours a day so I'm happy, my wife and kids slightly less so.

I tell you all this in the hope that my 'profile' has been filled out in a non boybanderish way that Vuk would surely approve of.

Anyway, You and I have probably noticed that the only decorators, restorers and chefs with any money are those making idiots of themselves on TV - may I suggest this is our best way of keeping up with Naim's pricing policy.

Alex

PS Also, I'm deeply sentimental so my 32.5/110 will be buried with me in the manner of Tutankhamun.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by garyi

Indeed nothing has pleased me more than to see the BBC have dropped that total tosser Jamie Oliver, he was a wanker and I have more talent than him, and thats not even in my own opinion.

Although of course it is my own opinion. But lets get down to brass tacks, I could go on TV and spout off with a lisp about how to put sugar and mint on some pinapple. Tosser.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by garyi

Mind you, if we had the disposables to be able to afford the 552 with little care then I fancy we wouldn't appriciate music as much as perhaps we do, if you get me.

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Mick P

Chaps

I have just returned from the show and this year, Naim have really done themselves proud.

Mrs Mick is well sold on their AV system, she thought it was the best of the bunch, despite the intense competition. The sound really was natural.

Her philosophy is that she spends quite a bit of time in front of the TV, so why not have a decent sound. The stand which matched the Fraim was a masterpiece and the speaker was brilliant.

Also, you can now buy intro level (5 series) at a very good price and the 552 has really got me twitching. I thought my 52 was good, but the 552 is several notches up.

Naim are offering a full range of products and we should be pleased for the direction in which their going.

I for one can see myself being a regular customer for many years ahead.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by P

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Paul B

quote:
No attempt is being made to compete with krell/ levinson if you follow what we are about then the Nait takes care of that.

Good one, Paul. I had a good laugh with this comment.

Actually, when I said Naim was trying to compete with Levinson/Krell, I only meant price-wise. Performance is something else again!

Paul

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by herm

When I'm seeing a book through the presses I usually prepare the back cover blurbs myself. So this is what I'd do with the 552 so far.

552: the box that's giving music lovers second thoughts.

11k buys an awful lot of babysitting time and concert tickets. (Andy Weekes)

If we had the disposables to afford the 552 then we wouldn't appreciate music as much as perhaps we do, if you get me. (Gary)

I suspect that a lot of people who like Naim gear are, like me, teachers or other public sector workers, and for us new top-end Naim equipment has always been out of reach. (EJL)

The 552 has really got me twitching. (Mick Parry)

So let's just just hope for the trickle down track.

Herman

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Mark Dunn

Hi all:

I just had an urge to add my 2 cents here. One of the things that I (and many others judging by previous posts) would dearly love is a 'basic' version of the 52 or 552. i.e. The sound quality of a 52/552 but without all the trappings. Three inputs, - phono, CD, Aux, volume and balance. There are a bunch of us out here who simply don't need all the other stuff.

All of the necessary R&D has already been done for existing products and it could be powered by a 'SuperCap Jr.' which would have only the necessary rails. Hell, it could even use a standard Burndy.

C'mon Paul S. and Doug G., - give us old timers something to look forward too!

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Mike Sae

quote:
Alex sed: I think this is the year that Naim left me behind.

quote:
Andrew sed:It is frustrating though to find nothing of interest to those of us at the lower ends of the Naim food chain....Meanwhile, I'll hope for some trickle-down...

Trickle down indeed... a couple years from now us blue collar folk will have all sorts of mid-range gear to ponder. Imagine a new Hi-Cap that doesn't buzz, a CDX that doesn't read what it's sitting on and an Intro that doesn't rip yer ears off

It's inevitable!

I'm looking forward to a 122 with phono sockets, all this BNC business is a pain in the ass

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Mike Sae

quote:
dearly love is a 'basic' version of the 52 or 552. i.e. The sound quality of a 52/552 but without all the trappings. Three inputs, - phono, CD, Aux, volume and balance.

Such a stripper, cool as it'd be, would certainly sound bettter than its big brother, no?

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by ejl:
The price differential between new Naim top-end gear and what went before it has always been high. Compare the price of the 52 when it was introduced to that of the 32-5 and other pre amps of the late-80s/early 90s. The differential was, I believe, pretty substantial then too.

I believe the 52+52PS was about four times the price of the (then-current) 72+HiCap when it was released.

quote:
Nor was the 52 power supply especially backwards-compatible -- it was backwards-compatible, but you lost a lot of what it offered.

The 52PS was not compatible with anything except a 52.

I suspect you mean the SuperCap which replaced & improved upon it some years later. Perhaps it's a bit early to be anticipating an improved model to replace the 552PS, though!

quote:
In the past new developments in Naim's top-end pre amps have trickled-down to more affordable gear (52=>82=>102, etc.). I expect the same thing to happen here. Maybe also with the 500.

Agreed.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 24 February 2002 by Craig B

quote:
Mark Dunn said...
Three inputs, - phono, CD, Aux, volume and balance.

Hmmm, how about a six railed, NAC42-5 with a Burndy socket out back and a lossy decoupled main board?

To Paul S.

About those RCA sockets. Why bend to conventional market trends when they go against ones stated logic wrt the known advantages of common system grounding? I can understand the use of RCAs on the phono inputs of the entry level gear where seperate L/R grounds are a non issue, but isn't the 552 intended to be the new flagship pre? And aren't those line level inputs?

Surely RCA to DIN Chords cost a very small fraction of the taxes on a top Naim pre-amp. Any dealer that sells Naim can no doubt provide some? The Nordost heads can go ahead and order their Red Dawn to Dusk crap with DINs on one end if they are so inclined.

Will including a couple of RCA sockets draw in new buyers that would otherwise overlook Naim? What's next, bi-wiring teminals on the speakers?

Sticking with ones principals is more likely to maintain the respect of existing supporters as well as draw new ones in.

With all due respect please take those bloody things off of there.

Craig
P.S. BTW, shouldn't it be NAC122?