Walcha Playing Bach.

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 18 November 2005

Dear Friends,

I have been wondering however to describe the two most significant Bach recordings I have become aquainted with this year. I speak of the Helmut Walcha's recordings of the Art Of Fugue and Golberg Variations, on Baroque Organ and Harpsichord respectively. Both lack any element of charisma or particular eccentricity. Both are single-minded and direct, though they have slightly different effects on an expressive and emotional level. The Art is not easily accessable music, and yet Walcha reveals beauties hard enough to reveal in any case (with such a straight reading) which are immediately engaging. The issue of the 16 foot tone is not addressed, and so there is the anomally of the bass being wrong in relation to the tenor, and these cross in the score, but put another octave down from the bass as written, and this is transformed. In fact is is not quite as clear cut as that and in practice is an intelectual issue as much as musical expressive one. The trouble is that the music is so far from most in style that description become very difficult. The sound world is mostly gentle and light, but the music making, is both very correct, and once past the idea of so many fugues, totally involving.

The Goldbergs are also rather severe, and the Aria, sets the tone, being quite swift. The whole method of expression is based in structural emotional expression and surface details are placed within the structural context rather than being underlined. This puts it out of line with modern ideas of Baroque keyboard playing, which Leonhardt pioneered. Flexibility of tempo is far more part of the menu nowadays. With Walcha any changes of tempi are based in long term structural considerations, with quite surprising results. One of which is that the 75 minutes pass before you realise it, it is so absorbing. I enjoy this severity, but that is why I titled this, Grit in the Eye. One will never tire of the approach, but it is formidable to say the least. Nothing is sweetened, and thus one can see the parallel with the greatest efforts of Klemperer, and Grumiaux's Bach playing as well.

Rightly these performances are still available, and will provide a sort of reference that should not, and really for the curious cannot, be ignored even if they represent 'a way' and not 'the way' to approach the music. They represent the peak for me, but then I must enjoy Grit in my Eye, musically at least, in that case!

I have failed to really advocate these performances adequately, and yet they represent the real Everest for me in Bach performance, and I think the sweetness and humanity as well as the rigourous severity of it are held in a fine balance. Not for everyone I would guess, but pretending otherwise would be to mis-represent the situation in my humble oponion. The greatest and most rugged peak, which is aproached by a steep and stoney path, affording a unique and staggering view, once climbed...

All the best from Fredrik

PS. From this peak, having listened again to the Goldbergs, my analogy of a splendid view from the highest peak might be seen as 'looking down' on all else. Not true; as a hike in the green and rolling foothills is just as pleasant and affords the chance to 'look upwards,' which is actaully just as enlightening. Klemperer did that and it is natural for the human to do it. A humble response to the mysteries of the world, I would think, and a good start for attempted understanding of anything. I am sure Walcha spent his time looking up, even though blind, which is paradoxically why his lofty view is SO compelling... The most devastatingly emotioninal music, and music making I know of, and enough to quietly make me weep in the right frame of mind.
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

Fifty views and not a peep! I am not going to eat your if you think old Walcha too tough a proposition, though I would prefer no mention the piano! I am not even going to be upset if you think I am wrong!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by nicnaim
Fredrik,

Sorry that you have had no comments, you clearly take your music very seriously. The truth is that I do not own a single classical record/cd so I have no understanding of what it is that you are so passionate about.

It is not that I have anything against classical music, just a lack of knowledge. It is a big subject that needs some guidance.

My musical tastes are pretty wide but I simply do not know where to start with classical, a bit like some people might be put off jazz.

I once attended a free open air concert of classical music in the amphitheatre in Orange in France and was moved to tears by the performance. No idea what the hell I was listening to but it was bloody good.

Once I was feeling a bit more courageous, I was going to ask some of you classical specialists for some hints on say half a dozen essential recordings to get me started. There I've done it now.

Currently listening to Oscar Pettiford Vienna Blues: The Complete sessions, which is the Dogs Bollocks. Sorry I have not got your flair for description.

Regards

Nic
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Nic,

Pasionate? Too passionate, I'd grant! It is why I motivate myself to live! Nothing pleases me more than to evangelise for the classics, so may I send you to a little Thread of mine called First Concertos, which is probably on page two here by now. Concertos are the easiest starting point, and I suggest getting no more than two records to start, but my opening list contains nothing that is too hard to understand and enjoy, right from the off. For what ever else, please leave the Art Of Fugue alone for a while! An ignoble music master of mine set me back twenty years with it by explaining that this was Bach! It is the greatest AND toughest Bach, and, like the best Malts, is something that can take a long time to grow into. If the bug gets you you may find it irresostable in time of course!

Have a look and enjoy the music, what ever genre! All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by Tam
Well, not being acquainted with either of the recordings myself it's a little tricky to comment, more so as I don't know the works as well as some.

Personally, I much prefer the Goldbergs on a piano to the harpsichord (though, oddly, I prefer my Brandenberg concertos with harpsichord). I think this is because the piano has a much greater and more rounded range as a solo instrument. To make it more difficult to assess, the only goldberg sets I have are the Gould ones, which offer just one, shall we say, unique perspective.

As to the Art of Fugue I don't even have a recording! My Bach organ work is limited to Hurfords massive 17 disc survey of everything Bach wrote explicitly for organ, so I assume the Art of the Fugue wasn't (and plenty that he didn't, such as the rather nice 8 short preludes). That said, the preludes and fugues are some of my favourite pieces.

I think it's interesting what you say about 'a way' as opposed to 'the way'. Such could be said of many of the great interpretations. View, for example, the Solti ring: in many ways great and, in my view, no serious Wagnerian should be without it. However, it is so utterly at odds with the likes of Bohm that it could hardly be described as 'the way' to record a ring. Much the same could be said of the Gould Bach recordings.

I wonder though, is there every such a thing as 'the way'. I have a great many recordings I would consider classics or even essential, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to determine any of them as 'the way'. (With the possible exception of Wilhelm Kempff and the Beethoven 4th concerto where I'm so used to hearing his own cadenzas that anything else seems plain wrong - but, of course, since they're his and not Beethoven's, can it possibly be 'the way'?)

Of course, what is one person's definitive recording will not necessarily be another's. I have spent some time this weekend reevaluating Murray Perahia's mozart concerto cycle. I bought it on the strength of it's rosette in the Penguin guide (whose mark has never before led me wrong) and the fact I got it for less than £40, however I have never quite got on with it. I was prompted to have another listen to it this weekend because my December issue of the Gramophone arrived which, amid a lot of sickly self-congratulatory guff about its thousandth issue (much of which I'm sure was recycled from their recent 80th birthday), was a list of the 100 greatest recordings of all time. Now, aside from the fact that these lists always tend to be a little silly (and many of my 'great' recordings were not on the list). However, the Perahia was and so I had another listen to some of it, but once again find myself a little unable to see quite what is so special. More so because about a month or two back I picked up Barenboim's BPO set at an astonishingly low price which seems to have altogether more sparkle and beauty. I'm curious though, as to how it compares to his older cycle with the ECO (the orchestra Perahia used). I wonder, too, whether I'm not coloured against Perahia because the first time I saw him was at the Edinburgh festival a few years back with the ASMF and he was terrible. He have an absolutely lethargic performance of a Brandenberg, Beethoven's 1st concerto and a mozart symphony in the late 30 (I forget which one): it was one of the most dull and lifeless concerts I've ever attended. Worst of all, he sang along while conducting. Now, I realise many great artists do that, but at least they generally have the grace to do so in tune!

Anyway, I seem to have wandered somewhat off the Bach theme of this thread, so I'll shut up and get back to the beethoven sonatas playing on my system and my glass of wine!

regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by Tam
Nic,

The various 'first' threads started (or inspired) by Fredrik are all worth reading, especially the concerto, piano and symphonies ones.

I'd also suggest this thread:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/1222941996/p/1

And, that you pick up Sir Charles Mackerras's set of Beethoven symphonies. Just £15 (or ten in HMV today) you can't go wrong! Mind you, for my money, they're the best at any price.


regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

Funny that you should touch on the issue of the possibility of any reading being definitive! I happen to think no reading can be, not even Elgar conducting Elgar! Boult and Sargeant and others show that one can be just as strong and structural, but bring more out, without false drama!

I am sure that you saw my 'Bach NOT on the Piano Forte' thread, and it is one that almost failed to get off the mark like this one. No one seemed to want to risk an opinion, though I grant the opener was pretty comprehensive.

As for Gould, this is a very personal issue for people. Either one suspends disbelief and adores the approach, or one shakes one's head and and considers the reading and performance style a barberous travesty, which happens to be my view, but again you need to look at that thread to see why. It is closely argued, and as I say, no tried to counter it.

As for Perahia, I have never bought into his Concerto playing in Mozart though I have the Bach set, but I have deep misgivings. It will not survive, but when I find splendid Harpsichord renditions, I shall take it to Oxfam. I owned, ever so briefly, his Goldberg recording too, but that was gone next day, if you see what I mean!

As for Peter Hurford, he was my intro the organ works, when the BBC broadcast a programme a week for about a year in, I think, 1983, where he introduced his own recordings, or possibly even specially made BBC ones - I cannot remember. But I think he uses organs of excessive power, and this does nothing to clarify the lines of counterpoint. In Walcha, one might almost think he goes too far the other way, but I find it the most convincing as a way to really take a good almost daily listen to one or two pieces, but I know that eventually I shall suplement these wonderful readings with others from MC Alain, or even Rubsam, whose Art Of Fugue I have as well. He uses a more flexible approach, and in some cases I think he is finer than Walcha, in that the result is more immediately appealing, though what I wrote about the Walcha recording of the Art, being immediately appealing is all true, but I guess you need to like the music first, perhaps!

Anyway, with luck this discussion might come alive now.

Sincerely, Fredrik

PS, Tam, Thanks so much for posting that link, as I don't know how! Fred
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by Tam
You're quite right about some of the organs Hurford selects (all of which are modern instruments). That said, some of them are small and not overbearing. I'm very curious about Simon Preston's survey as he used organs from Bach's time.

What is most interesting for me about Gould is that while I totally buy into his Goldbergs, his Well Tempered Clavier left me utterly cold. I only bought a second set (also Barenboim) because my excellent local cd shop (it's, incidentally nice to finally be living somewhere with a specialist classical store - also dangerously expensive!) had a special on all his stuff (also why I picked up the concertos). I was so sold on this first volume that I recently picked up the second.

As to the nature of definitive recordings, you're quite right. For example, I recently picked up one of Decca's bargain boxes of Britten conducts Britten operas. The Peter Grimes (the only one I have a different recording of for comparison) is very fine indeed, but definitive? I also have the LSO live one, and the orchestral playing on that is in another league, though the voices are markedly inferior. But, still, it makes it hard to describe the Britten as definitive. That said, I would go so far as to describe the Brunelle recording of Paul Bunyan as definitive (at least until something better comes along, and I'll be surprised if it does), but then we only have to to chose from there. Also, I wonder if perhaps some of Sir Charles Mackerras's Janacek might not be described as definitive?

As to the Art of the Fugue, would you have said the Walcha recording was a good one to be getting started with (I feel as though it's something of a gaping hole in my collection Winker).

Regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

Composer renditions are best perhaps described as authoritative, rather than definitve, having thought about it for a long time. Do you think that is reasonable? But just as authoritative can be the performances of those associated with the composer as well, like Stuart Bedford and Britten...

But I am sure that there are best recordings on occasion. As the number of recordings of a work increase, though, this becomes much harder to sustain, as any work, worth its salt, will have many facets, and it doubtful in my view whether one performance alone could ever bring everthing out with perfect balance of expresiion. Actually we have explored that this very evening in our discussion on the Great C Major, where, in my view the half dozen recordings I have, would still benefit from the presence of another reading, and so I shall get Sir Charles M's recording and get back with my thoughts on it in a week or two. Thanks for the push, by the way.

All the very best from Fredrik

PS. The answer to you questions about the Art of Fugue and Preston, is wonderfully found and killed with one splendid stone. Walcha's stereo traversal of the Bach Organ Music, which excludes the wrongly attributed works, and contains the AOF, whic Walcha eventually became convinced should be performed and at that on the organ. I find it totally convincing on the organ, and not at all easy on the harpsichord, though I have a splendid recording of it from D Morony on a harpsichord. But I personally have reservations about Preston. I can't actually justify them - they are pure opinion, and I am happy to say so - but I find he is the articulation Meister rather at the expense of the singing line. Both Walcha and Leonhardt are very articulate, and the default mode is correctly a detache one, but with these two articulation is used to deeply expessive effect, as an expressive device that is both structural and surface related. The articulation is deeply considered and varied in an expressive way. I find Prestion is a bit like modern violinists. He uses a more or less continuous sharp articulation as modern violinist seem largely unable to refrain from full on vibrato. The Walcha set is not full price but about 70 or 80 GBP, when I saw it in London last spring - on Arkiv. Good hunting! There are two organs used, and both are splendid Bach-period Baroque instruments.
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Fredrik,

I totally agree with where you're trying to go with composer renditions, in that there is certainly something 'special' and indeed 'important' about them, whilst not being 'definitive'. As such, I suppose 'authoritative' is a reasonable description, but for some reason it doesn't seem to sit quite right with me. That said, since I cannot think of a better word... Winker

I think it's helpful to have the distinction of 'best' recordings though, again, without their being definitive, that way we're never excluding the possibility that someone else will come along and manage it even better than has been achieved before.

As for Sir Charles's schubert, I hope you enjoy it (please note, that since I do have something of a soft spot for him, as you will no doubt have gleaned from my many glowing posts on the man, I'm possibly not the best arbiter of the absolute quality of his work).

Thanks for the recommendation of Walcha. I assume you're talking about the stereo set there as opposed to the mono one on DG's original masters series?


regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I have the mono set and it is splendid, but the stereo set has the Art Of Fugue on it. It also is splendid!

Today I had a day of holiday, and as per ususal, I was so tyred that I just slept. Seems like I need to actually have time booked off to relax, though it is a fearful waste of life to do what I have done today. Shame.

All the best, Fredrik
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by nicnaim
Tam / Fredrik,

Just to let you know that after earlier trip to HMV, I am currently being pinned to the back of the settee by Schubert No 9, Solti version suggested.

Also picked up Mackerras Beethoven symphony 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 as they were part of 3 for £15 deal. Mozart no 40 & 41, (could not find Berstein version, so Yehudi Menuhin version with Sinfonia Varsovia).

Very confusing finding records in three different places compared to the usual "Artist" format. Took me ages to find some of your suggestions, part of the learning curve I suppose.

Thanks for the threads and pointers, would not have known where to start otherwise. A few hours of listening and appreciating ahead. Old habits die hard, could not resist picking up Tubby Hayes 100% Proof and The Art of Pepper.

Thanks for opening the door. Fredrik hope you are rested now.

Nic
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Nic,

Grand start in my view! I started with the Great C Major, and never stopped since! I am rested, indeed. I ruined my day off by arrising at 06:00 hours, chickening out, and going back to bed til 15:00 hours. I guess that it was needed. Nice supper at a friends house in prospect later, so I don't even have to cook today!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Nic,

Congratulations on your purchases, I hope you enjoy them.

Yes, it does take some getting used to the way classical cds get laid out, but it does make sense, I promise! I think part of it is probably getting used to the way the works are arranged within each composer: normally you get the big orchestra works first (symphonies, concertos, etc.), then chamber music (i.e. string quartets) and then solo instrument stuff. Opera will be somewhere else again. Of course, just to confuse you, there will then be another section for budget price labels (such as naxos where all discs are about £5) and, in hmv, another rack of item on sale! Winker


regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by pe-zulu
Well, I am not sure that Walchas interpretation of The Art of Fugue is the best way to learn to know this work, I find it too austere for a beginner, but once you know the work reasonably well, Walchas interpretation is indeed mandatory. M-C Alains in the same time more normal and still HIP recording is probably a better starting point. Her first recording (only LP) is out of print, but it was more coherent than her second recording (CD), which by the way is rather good too.

As to Peter Hurfords Bach cycle: He is only halfways HIP performer, but except for his unhappy choice of the modern and great German organ in Ratzeburg (for the warhorse works BWV 542, 548, 565 and 582) I find his interpretation consistantly charismatic and rewarding. Even on the smaller organs he plays in real great style and with much authority.

And Prestons recording, stay away from it. He is brilliant but he is just superficial. The great style has become a manner, and nothing else. Yes, he uses interesting organs, but this is not sufficient to "save" the recording.

The most accessible interpretation of Bachs organ works as a whole is without doubt the latest recording by Marie-Claire Alain (Erato DDD ca ten years old), She uses more interesting organs than Preston, and she understands the style much better. She is a real HIP organist, one of the first incidentally.
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear pe-zulu,

Thanks for your post! I am glad we can agree about Preston. I have been loaned for a short while the Erato LPs of MC Alain, and they are splendid, but I still prefer H Walcha! I shall get these in the coming year I hope, if finances will stretch.

I have found P Hurford somewhat fierce, even excessively so in places, but elsewhere surprisingly oddly characterised - like the continuous crescendo in the Saint Anne Prelude, which is not needed from the musical structural or expressive point of view or the rather sleepy Wachet Auf... - and whilst there is something severe about Walcha here and there, I always seem to get drawn straight in to the music. I think his way is uncompromising, but strangely seems detached from the grubbing real world of daily-life, almost other-worldly. But I defer to your view about starting with Walcha's Art Of Fugue recording, because it so suits me that I would blind enough to not see its difficulty relative to an easier approach. In any case it really does find another level of concentation, but perhaps it is best left till later. I have had Morony for a long time on harpsichord and found it difficult for over ten years, but I eventually found my way into it. I now find it very fine indeed after aquaintance with Walcha's reading, but Walcha's reading exalts in a way that is alien to Morony. This not a dilution of purity so much as a realisation of something very much within the music, I think. A real characterisation of the meaning for the intent listener.

I tried not to give the impression that this is easy music making, but that it is truely great music making for all that, unless I am really going off the rails in terms of discriminating the good from the great.

Such a pleasure to read another of your posts, from Fredrik
Posted on: 22 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
A good frind is giving me a whole load more the Walcha Bach Harpsichord series, which is tragically out of print, but not in quite such Alpine Music! It will be fascinating to listen to how this Alpinist performs the more homely music of the Suites and Partitas! I cannot wait. but 'oh why' have EMI not issued this wonderful material in the UK? It is dumbfounding!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 23 November 2005 by Tam
It is certainly a shame so much material vanishes inexplicably from the catalogue. Then again, I personally find that a little harpsichord goes a long way, so I suspect it's down to the fact they don't think there's enough demand.

That said, old recordings do have odd habits of where they show up in reissues: I recently picked up a set of Jochum doing Bruckner on the cheap, it turned out that EMI was deleting the set which has, according to gramophone reappeared on Brilliant Classics. That said, it probably represents a more popular part of the repertoire (though I'm not sure why since I tend to find Bruckner rather repetitive).

Sorry, I realise I've gone way off topic again!

regards, Tam
Posted on: 23 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I am not sure that is off topic at all. After all digession is always valuable in pointing things up! As for Bruckner, and you know what I think of Wagner, I think he wrote the most amazing music. It is certainly obviously flawed, but there is no further weakness to discover later, and I almost love its very human striving after prfection of form, and quite as much as the finished perfection of old Bach, but he appeals in so many ways for me! Maybe it is simple music for somple people like me! Except that I cannot be entirely simple if I enjoy the genius of Bach's creations, which exist on so many levels, and each adds to the stimulation and challenge of it, as well as the pleasure in learning it and ultimately being overcome by its unique expressive world! Mind they both did counter-point, and better than anyone else! Try the Fifth Symphony. Well when you fully comprehend that you will be a better man than me. but I still love it.

I think Bruckner probably only follows Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Brahms, Beethoven, and Sibelius among my favourites! I struggle terribly with Mahler.

All the best from Fredrik

Edited. Jeez, my typos are getting worse.
Posted on: 24 November 2005 by Tam
Very interesting comments there, I'd never really thought of his music in quite those terms.

I do like Bruckner, though I simply find that, when I listen through one of the complete sets after I buy it, I find things getting a little repetitive. I also think he tries too much in terms the music always coming to climax. I think what I'm saying is that Bruckner is great, but only one or two symphonies at a time. Also, I think he sometimes suffers from not keeping the best until last, take, for example, the 4th symphony: the first two movements are some of my favourite music but the second two come as something of a letdown.

I understand why some people struggle with Mahler, though, personally, I couldn't bring myself to part with more than one of my 8 cycles! What I love about Mahler goes back to that quote about a symphony being the 'world', I think the music, especially in the finest ones, comes on such a journey that listening to a good performance can be a wonderful and emotionally draining experience.

Aside from Mahler (and Wagner, if we're talking opera Winker) most of my favourites would be on that list. Tell me, have you heard the Davis LSO live Sibelius 3&7 (an excellent disc, though their other recent effort, 5&6 is more mediocre). I love Haydn too, especially when Bernstein is doing his symphonies, I think he manages to get the most wonderfully joyful sound. As far as Brahms goes, while I'm very happy with my Mackerras/SCO cycle (which is very good), I've yet to find a truly satisfying account with a larger band. Abbado's was not bad, Haitink's recent LSO live set was not good (except no.2) and Bernstein's DG set was lousy except no.4.

Interestingly, and going back to Bach to finish off with I was at a concert last week given by the SCO of a Brandenburg (I forget which one) and two violin concertos (as well as haydn's clock). Now, aside from the soloist in the violin concertos being out of tune with the orchestra Eek my biggest complaint was that the balance was wrong and I couldn't hear the harpsichord properly. Indeed, in the past when I've heard Brandenburgs done with piano they just sound plain wrong (with the possible exception of Hewitt's latest stuff on Hyperion which uses both - but I only heard the taster on Gramophone). I suspect this is due to balance between the instrument and the orchestra and the tone just not quite sounding right. However, it's interesting that the piano sounds 'wrong' in one part or Bach's repertoire yet, for the goldbergs or the well tempered I much prefer it.


regards, Tam
Posted on: 24 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

A Bruckner Thread has been brewing in my mind for weeks, though I shall now have to gather my thoughts before I can make it solid and logical. It is good for me to work thses things out, as I learn at least as much as anyone else might from anything I write, becasue it is never accidental, except the typing!

I don't know if you did ever read 'Bach NOT on the Piano,' but in fact the harpsichord balance issue is covered, and you may be surprised by how catholic I was in regard of the piano in the case of orchestral music, so whereas you enjoy the piano in solo music such as the Goldbergs, and I do not, I can accept it quite well in the keyboard concerti, though it is not always very successful in the role of continuo keyboard, I would think... Of course Adolph Busch's wonderful set of Suites and Brandenbergs show how well it can be done and work, but all too often the effect is not very happy.

In fairness I could actually do without the piano totally in Bach for reason fully covered in that Thread, except in the case of some venerable old performances by such as Busch (with hie son-in-law P Sekin as pianist of course), Edwin Fsicher and Artur Schnabel in the older sets, and MJ Pires in a more comtemporay setting.

I have just been given more or less the remaining solo keybaod music of old JS Bach in estimable harpsichord performances, but I doubt if that would make for a particularly useful Thread. It is indeed hard enough to kick life into a discussion of the Goldbergs, if we avoid the contentious issue of pianists in the work. I am not going to say which pianist, or even pianists, I mean as I was once involved in a marathon, and not altogether pleasant, debate on that quite sometime ago. So if people decide on a re-run, I shall not partake! The point was quite clearly aired in that old thread, and re-itteration would serve no purpose!

Give me a week or two and Bruckner it shall be! Fredrik