Has anyone downgraded their Naim system ??

I've never been tempted to downgrade but I can understand your motivation -- and not just because you work at JPM.

Instead of selling the whole system and getting a solid budget one, why not go a different route? Keep your killer sources -- CDS-II, NAT01 and LP12 -- and run them through a Nait 3 or 5 with a pair of Kans, Neat Petites, Royd Sorcerers, whatever.

Perhaps this won't free up as much money as you'd like but a strong source-first system is rarely unsatisfying. More to the point, if you go with a entry-level system throughout, you might be left wanting after a while... no matter how your investments are doing.

Joe

In fact, the way you talk about investments versus music listening pleasure makes me suspect that you bought the system as a trophy in the first place. There's a good chance that I'm wrong, though, and please don't take it too hard. I'm just suggesting that your musical pleasure might not be as important to you as your financial state. Only you know for sure.

As to finding a balanced system that sounds good, my Mom's JVC FS-7000 midi system is quite enjoyable and cost only $250US. My clock radio also plays nice music in the morning (about $5US). Curiously, I prefer my clock radio over a crappy Panasonic MIDI system that's in the same room. I'm not sure that I could live with either as my "main" system, but they certainly are enjoyable now and again.

I've actually got two Naim systems (one at home and one at work). The office system is a Cambridge CD5/32.5/SPAPS2/110/RoydMerlin, so it's not much different from the system that you're considering. I really enjoy listening to music at my office, and I might even be able to live with this as my "main" system. However, I really appreciate sitting down at home and letting the music fly. There's nothing else like it.

In terms of others who have taken this path, Greg Beatty <sp?> recently sold all of his Naim system and bought some cheap boxes (not sure what). Tanais Fox sold most of his top-flight Naim gear and stacked up an altar of Mana with a Sansui CD player on top. Perhaps you can look to them for direction.

In the end you'll have to listen to a few systems and see if you could accept them. I suggest that you take them home and try to live with them for a week before taking the plunge. Enjoying something at someone else's place and living with it yourself are two entirely different things.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Well, I haven't really downgraded my Naim system,
since I never had the chance/money to own/hear
the more pricier Naim goodies.

I do believe I am listening to a very balanced
Naim budget system though. At this very moment
I'm listening to Nait-2,Naim CD-3.5 + Flatcap,
nac-a5 cable and some MA Studio-2SE's.

I don't really have some upgrade wishes for the moment and I also do like simple,single source
systems better.

btw, Just an couple o'minutes ago I saw a s/h
Nait-2 for DM 850,- on www.springair.de
(click on verstarker and then on "vollversterker") Now, DM 850,- is still a high
price for 12 year old amp that only costed about
DM 1500,- back then.

I agree with Joe Petrik. Stick to your LP12 and/or CDS-2 and try a s/h Nait-2 or 3 or ok,maybe even a 5. (yak, those ugly 5-series.)

Well, good luck with it.

Greetings,
Alco.
undefined

whether its a good idea or not obviously only you can determine.

i havent exactly downgraded, but effectively my whole system 52/250/supercap/hicap is at naim right now for a service.

i borrowed a 42.5/140 from my dealer to see me through this period. although i am beginning to get used the system now, i doubt if i can live with it.

of course, if i knew of a "dead cert" in the financial markets, i would definitely consider liquidating my system, for a while... and the come back with a vengeance --- NAP500 and all that...

sorry, not a very useful reply...

ken

I sympathise with what you are saying. I know its totally dis-hartening to spend quite a bit of money on what you expect to be a first class system and then along comes something at a fraction of the price that whups-its-ass (in a musical/figure-of-speach kind of way). Okay, well not exactly whups-its-ass, but forces you to re-evalute exactly "what did you spend all that extra money on".

I think we've all been there at some point.

What generally happens is that you upgrade a component, you get an improvement, you upgrade again, you get another improvement, and so on. Your satisfied that your upgrades are giving good value for money. But what you don't realise is when you started on the upgrade path your system, for whatever reason, wasn't giving its best. And even though each upgrade seems to work, your not getting the best out of it.

And then one day you listen to a much less expensive system that *IS* working to its best potential and its a bit of a shock when you realise just how close the gap is - despite the difference in cost. (These things tend to related to factors of musical enjoyment rather than things like scale, dynamics, detail, sound-staging etc).

Thats when you start to expect more from your system than you are actually getting - and from there you are into a downgrade mode of thinking.

However, DONT PANIC. Stay calm. Keep hold of the equipment you've got. If nothing else, think of the losses you'll make. Take it from someone who's been there - if you are not getting complete satisfaction from the kind of gear you've got, there's something wrong in some way with the setup. It would take the contents of many threads to start going into what *might* not be right with your system. All I can say here is that you just need to perservere with it. Start looking at stands and mains issues.

After that initial kick-start (like you've just had) it's taken me a couple of months to sort things out. Now I'm back on track and totally satisfied that the money I've spent on HiFi equipment is giving me value for money.

Allan.

My system has evolved from Panasonic cheapie cd/72/140 to same source/72/hicap/140 to CDS/72/hicap/old 250 to old cheap source/72/hicap/new 250 to cheap Denon/72/hicap/Dynaco ST 70 (tube amp). Upgrades were based on finding good deals on the used market at the time. Downgrades were based on family needs and competing priorities. I take a fairly sanguine view and think of my system as a work in progress. I don't want to sweat it.

After all this is said and done, I'm fairly content for the intermediate term, and I can live with my system fairly happily. But I do look forward down the road to another 250, at least a cd 3 or better and maybe someday an 82. But mostly I don't worry about it when I listen. I just enjoy the music.

I also do take a little issue with how we calculate the "cost" of some more expensive components. Maybe it's a function of where I am economically on the food chain, but to calculate the cost of, say, a $3000 investment in a component, I use the old (1 + i)to the "n" multiplier to calculate the future value of the investment. The way I calculate it, a $3000 amp is actually costing me $16,679 at my retirement (18 years down the road)(assuming 10% interest). So I don't think you are crazy or out of line to think of downgrading your system. I think maybe you are smart. BTW, didn't you feel a certain relaxed and care-free attitude when listening to your sister's system? My guess is that you felt you could *almost* live with it. To me that's a pretty good system

You could very well free up funds by down-grading, but as Allan put it, you'd also be losing quite a fair bit from the sale. But it is very possible to scale down the system and still enjoy listening to the music as it is, without having to "listen too hard" - although that will depend very much on your "value system", and whether you're able to accept this scale-down and live happily every after. Some of us can, others can't - it's choosing what will make you happiest. I suffer from varying degrees of "audiophila nervosa" at one point or the other, in my never-ending quest for the holy sonic grail, and what's rather comforting is the fact that I haven't quite met a fellow audiophile who doesn't exhibit the same urge in almost always wanting to improve on the sound he's getting too - which almost seems as if we've somehow lost sight of the primary goal in the first place : enjoying the music in all its glory, as it is.

When I reached that point quite a number of years ago, my "dis-illusionment" saw to it that I sold off my 52/135/CDS/SBL system; like you I did consider the extra funds could have been better utilised elsewhere, for "more pressing concerns", and I did. But that sale inadvertently brought me back to my Naims again after these years, and I couldn't be happier. I realised what I had missed, despite all the system's inherent "faults", and decided the Naims at this sonic level could deliver what I really wanted. I haven't looked back since and am patiently waiting for the right time to upgrade to DBLs and a 500.

In hindsight, I could have saved quite a fair bundle NOT selling off my first system, but such was life, and I had to go through that in order to "graduate" into this line of thought for the present.

My guess is you could down-size provided that will really make you happier listening to the music, and at the same time have some extra funds to roll for other pursuits. Whether you'll keep your stuff as it is (and it's already excellent stuff, assuming they're properly set-up) depends on your "value system": in this case what you value more in terms of the quality of music you're getting, above other considerations. Put another way, it depends on what your expectations for sound quality are, and that can only be answered by yourself.

I could live with a CD5/Nait5/Nat05/IntroII, but have lower expectations for it, because they are indeed in a different league from active SBLs driven by four monoblocks. They'll probably come somewhat close, and if you can accept it based on your expectations, all well and good. But if you can't, then you might just end up having to buy everything back again, eventually, like I did, which will mean even more money.

Why not take a refreshing break from the listening (literally not listen for a couple of weeks - keep the house absolutely music-free) and when you come back for a listen eventually, your active set-up will somehow sound better, for no apparent reason. Then, get round to tweaking again, and having some fun.

Have a Kit-Kat.

Good resting; the music'll still be groovin' when you return.

Regards

Philip

naimniac for life

Posted in another thread here, Mike stated (I'm quoting out of memory, apologize if I'm not as accurate as should be) that adding a Mana soundframe to something is like 75% of adding a xps.

So here is my advice to you -

Downgrade your system by 57% !!!! (fifty seven - it is not a mistake)

Buy a Mana table - and you will not feel you downgraded !

Isn't it nice ?

Arie

John
L

[This message was edited by John C on TUESDAY 13 February 2001 at 15:46.]

I am getting tired or hearing Mana is a cure-all.

Yes, that's right, there is someone with 2 mana racks who is not happy with the sound of his hi-fi. It must be his fault. You know, personal responsibility and all.

--Eric

Thanks for the sage advice. I do already have Mana
racks and the system sounds excellent as it is. I will definitely try out the cheaper options to see if I could live happily with those before I sell any pieces. I do want to avoid selling the whole system and then regretting it and then paying more money to buy it back later.

When I was 14 and spent $300 on my whole system I thought it sounded excellent. I wasn't looking for the next upgrade I was just enjoying the music.... When I graduated from college I discovered a copy of Stereophile recommended components and that's when it all started. I bought a $3000 system in 1990 ( Spica Angelus speakers/NAD pre/power amp). In 1993, I bought Thiel 2.2 speakers and McCormack pre/power and I went into a Linn/Naim dealer to audition a $1500 Linn Mimik as an upgrade from my Rotel 955 CD . I didn't know about source first then and thought a $1500 CD player was a resaonable amount to spend on a system with $2400 speakers and a $2000 power amp. I walked out with a Linn Karik ($3400.) The next year I bought an 82/hicap/250 and I was hooked. I went to Australia for work and the dealer there was getting rid of his demo 4x 135 and sbl's and I decided to buy them.

It's not that I'm dissatisfied with my system... I'm just thinking I could still be happy with a more simple system and in 20 years have a whole lot more money to enjoy. As someone mentioned if a $3,000 amp could turn into $16,000 in 18 years with a 10% rate of return.... the $30,000 I could get for my system would be $160,000 in 18 years.. not an insignifcant amount of money.

I'll consider all the options and I 'll let you know what I decide.

Thanks
Greg

Regards, Bas

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but don't remember that you live NOW!

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Arie

I agree with much of what has already been written.

I agree totally with Bas though. Life is for living - you can't take the money with you and so you might as well enjoy yourself as much as possible while you are here.

If you are going to sell the system make sure you spend the money on something else which will give you pleasure - travel, fine wine, loose women, fast cars.

Jonathan
(Logged in from an internet cafe in Muscat with a hangover from last night's wine, a huge credit card balance and my beautiful wife beside me!)

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I currently have Naim CDS2,01, lp12 with aro, armageddon, dynavector 17D2mk2, 52, snaxo/sc 4 x 135's and Credo's and SBL's. The system sounds great but I do have a lot of moeny tied up in the system which could be making more money in an investment.

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quote:

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It's not that I'm dissatisfied with my system... I'm just thinking I could still be happy with a more simple system and in 20 years have a whole lot more money to enjoy. As someone mentioned if a $3,000 amp could turn into $16,000 in 18 years with a 10% rate of return.... the $30,000 I could get for my system would be $160,000 in 18 years.. not an insignifcant amount of money.

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Just wanted to note--if you had invested in a Nasdaq index fund on the original post date--February 12, you would have lost (on paper) a third of your money. It will take another 5-10 years for your hi-fi to lose that much value. You can't count on double digit investment returns for the next 18 years! But you can count on excellent music from Naim.

--Eric

My situation was different from yours and my downgrade driven by different forces.

Unlike you, I was *not* satisfied with my system. The system was CD3/72/hi/140/ProAc Response 2's and an LP12.

To my ears, this system missed on classical music. The lack of texture made me indifferent to the classical music I tried to listen to. I listened to the CD3.5 and several CDX's - at dealer's and on Mana - with no better result. Oddly, my leftover cheapie system (Sony ES series receiver, discman, Polk speakers) didn't have this problem. I could listen to classical and choral music and really enjoy it. No urge to skip tracks or change CDs.

So, I decided to take the recommendation of others to set up the downgrade system and see if I could live with it.

I did - and I found little urge to go back to the touchy-to-set-up-not-delivering-the-goods-cost-a-bundle (relatively speaking) system.

That said, there are DEFINITELY things the Naim/ProAc combo did that my downgraded system will not. The Naim bits time much better. The sound is cleaner and the system plays louder. But this is little help to me since the system renders my classical music in a way that is boring and unlistenable.

Also, I had decided at the time of purchase I had reached my spending limit on hi-fi. I have other concerns - such as saving for retirement, house, kids - that are more important to me, and I have limited funds. So a CDS2 is not an option, though I could afford one without immediate heartache.

So, I switched to the system that works for me. My apartment is also quite small now, so there is no need for a large system to fill the room. I did try two other sets of speakers in addition to the Polks that I have, and at this price point, the speakers are crucial. There are so many that are just unlistenable (screetch!) or that totally compress things. The Polks do an admirable job.

-GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here