what's the greatest 20 C symphony

Posted by: herm on 11 December 2001

There's a question I'd like to ask and that's what are your favourite big symphonic pieces from the previous century? And what are its best performances?

I know, we're supposed to think the 19th was the great symphonic century, while the 20th was about attenuated miniatures. Still, Debussy's La Mer is a great symphony, and so is Petrushka, even though both works officially aren't symphonies.

My best symphony of the century however is an official symphony, and it's Prokofiev's Sixth. And the funny thing is that a lot of conductors are eager to perform Prokofiev 5, but P 6's are pretty few and far between.

The recordings I have are Rostropovich with the French National on Erato, Jarvi with the Scottisch National on Chandos, and Osawa with the Berlin Philharmonic on Deutsche G. None of them are outstanding, altough I have to say Osawa is a lot better than he's given credit for. Jarvi is really the worst. As a Chandos artist and conductor of the Scottish NO he's been pushed relentlessly by the British magazines, but in my book he's one of the great Unmusical Conductors of the Century.

Prokofiev said his Sixth was about the triumph of mankind, or something along those lines, as a typical Stalinist piece of preemptive apology, since it's clearly a tragic work. It's the symphony where Prokofiev comes closest to Shostakovich's bleak irony. Except that it's a very colorful work. And very moving too: the middle movement with the lyrical trumpet tune, doubled by the upper strings, is just one sexy love song, except for the Big Nasty Boots in the middle. Remember P's first wife wound up in a camp in Siberia, because she was a classy, foreign woman.

The best performance I ever heard was Kurt Sanderling conducting the Rotterdam Philharmonic, at the Gergiev Prokofiev Festival in Rotterdam, Jan 2000. Couple nights earlier Valery Gergiev had led the same orchestra in the Fifth; that was a hurried, mediocre affair. However, Sanderling's Sixth was moving and monumental. He'd conducted the premiere back in the forties, and here was this ancient little guy quietly pushing this enormous orchestra (including a piano and a celesta). A performance of shattering power.

And I have to say it was not the first time I heard Sanderling beat all the competition. Back in the Midwest I heard a bunch of Minneapolis concerts by Sanderling, among which was the best Schubert Nine I have ever heard, and again there was this element of complete patient knowing and great emotive power. Sanderling retired shortly after the concert I'm talking about and it's just too bad there are so few recordings of his late years.

So, anyone else with a Best 20 th Symphony and the best recording / performance?

Bye now

Herm

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Cheese

There are certainly better people than I to talk about music of the 20th century, as I know practically nothing about it, and I don't really understand it either. But one work that really draw my attention was the Turangalila Symphony by Olivier Messiaen, conducted by Simon Rattle (a Sir in the meantime). Really outstanding by its melodies as well as by the instruments.

Any others to like Messiaen's work ?

Cheese

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Todd A

Great Twentieth Century Symphonies. Hmmm. I, too, rather fancy the great symphonies of the Twentieth Century. Of course there is a difference between symphonies and other orchestral works, having to do with formal structure and all, but I like the approach here. Below is a pretty long list my favorite symphonies and other orchestral works, along with some where I have only a passing familiarity, from that most musically diverse of centuries. I cannot really assign the label “greatest” to any specific work, but some are better than others.

Mahler – Symphony No 9 (Zander, Bernstein, Abravanel, Walter, Klemperer), Symphony No 6 (Bernstein, Boulez)

Webern – Symphony, Five Pieces for Orchestra (Boulez for both)

Stravinsky – Symphony in 3 Movements (Ashkenazy or Stravinsky), Symphony of Psalms (Stravinsky), Symphony in C (Stravinsky), The Rite of Spring (Stravinsky, Salonen), Petroushka (Stravinsky, Kondrashin – what a blistering set)

Scriabin – Symphony No 3, Poem of Ecstasy, Prometheus (Ashkenazy or Muti)

Sibelius – Symphonies 2 (Colin Davis), 4, 5, 6, 7 (Karajan [gulp]), Tapiola (Davis or Karajan [gulp again])

Carter – Symphonia (Knussen), Concerto for Orchestra (Gielen), Variations for Orchestra (Levine)

Janacek – Sinfonietta, Taras Bulba (Kubelik, MacKerras, Talich)

Messiean – Turangalila (Chung – the composer himself endorsed this one)

Karl Amadeus Hartmann – Symphonies 6 (Metzmacher or Botstein), 7 & 8 (Metzmacher)

Shostakovich – Symphony No 8 (Mravinsky – BBC Legends recording), Symphony No 5 (too many good ones), Symphony No 9 (Levi)

Ravel – Daphnis et Chloe (Boulez [gulp])

Ives – Symphony No 2 (Bernstein or Schermerhorn), Three Places in New England (Tilson-Thomas)

Piston – Symphony No 2 (Tilson-Thomas) [And probably others, no doubt, but this is the only one I have yet heard], Violin Concerto (bending the rules, I know, but go for the Naxos set)

Prokofiev – Symphony No 5 (Koussevitsky, Levine), No 6 (Slatkin)

Bartok – Concerto for Orchestra (Reiner, Dorati, or Fricsay), Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste (Reiner or Fricsay)

Tubin – Based on the strength of the Third Symphony (I believe) from the BBC Music magazine, I believe I will begin investigating more of his symphonies.

Rautavaara – Same as Tubin, the Third piqued my interest so I shall have to look into his music some more.

Vaughn Williams – Symphonies No 3 and No 4 (Haitink or Boult)

Korngold – Symphony in F-sharp (Welser-Most)

Schoenberg – Chamber Symphony No 2 (Gielen)

Boulez – Repons (Boulez)

Debussy – La Mer, Nocturnes, Images (Start with Haitink or Boulez. I’m going to try Cantelli next)

Barber – Symphony No 1 (Slatkin)

Enescu – Symphony No 3, Romanian Rhapsodies, Vox Marais

Honneger – Symphony No 3 (Karajan)

Arnold – Try any from the Naxos set. Not of Mahler or Beethoven quality, but quite good.

Szymanowski – Symphonies No 3 & No 4

Martinu – Try any from the Naxos series.

Schuman – Symphony No 3 (Bernstein – the DG recording)

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by herm

the music you really live with

Well, that's a great list, Todd, and I agree with you item for item, but I'm really interested to know what are the big orchestral works you really identify with, the way people feel a Beethoven symphony is the story of their life.

Twentieth C music used to be something one got a taste of, just to be culturally correct, and then it was back to the safe classical era - since that was real human music. I think we have a better perspective now (and just plain more music, after all).

By the way, you like Ashkenazy in Stravinsky, and Karajan in Sibelius; have you ever tried Ashkenazy's Sibelius recordings? The 6 and 7 are quite good. And indeed, Sibelius 6 would be on my short list for great 20th C symphonies.

Anyone else a favorite piece of symphonic music?

Herm

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Todd A

quote:
I'm really interested to know what are the big orchestral works you really identify with, the way people feel a Beethoven symphony is the story of their life.

I don't really listen to music in such a way that I identify with it or hear something in it that reflects on my life. I seek a more transitory enjoyment based on intellectual enjoyment (how else can one enjoy most Schoenberg, for instance?) or in-the-moment emotional enjoyment (Mahler springs to mind here). Transitory enjoyment leads to such big lists, and an insatiable appetite for more music. Perhaps in general I do associate with 20th Century music more than 19 Century music (I have a larger collection of 20th Century works than prior periods), but not with any specific work. How or why I cannot say. The closest I come to associating with specific music is when I listen to solo piano music played by specific artists, like Kempff playing Schubert, Annie Fischer playing Beethoven, or Gyorgy Sandor playing Bartok. I sort of listen and say, "If I could, that's how I would play it."

quote:
By the way, you like Ashkenazy in Stravinsky, and Karajan in Sibelius; have you ever tried Ashkenazy's Sibelius recordings?

Yes, and I do enjoy Ashkenazy. I find that Karajan's drier, colder approach suits some of the later symphonies very well, the Seventh in particular.

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Former member

With 20th-century´s symphonic music being very heterogeneous regarding both style and form, it is virtually impossible to reduce the manifold variety of modern symphonies to one all-important masterpiece as the proper quintessence of an entire epoch. Doubtless, Beethoven´s Ninth is the absolute zenith of classical symphonic writing, but the 20th-century was much too incommensurably pluralistic and idiosyncratic an era to culminate in one single supernova outshining everything else. Instead, there is a blaze of many different stars on the firmament of modern music.
So here´s a chronological list of works which I deem important and representative of 20th-century classics; may it be called new music, avant-garde, neo-classical, neo-romantic or labelled otherwise:

1902 Gustav Mahler - Symph 5
1904 Charles Ives - Symph 3
1906 Arnold Schoenberg - Chamber Symph 1
1906 Gustav Mahler - Symph 6
1905/07 Alexander Scriabin - Symph 4 ("le poème de l´extase")
1908 Gustav Mahler - Symph 7
1909/10 Gustav Mahler - Symph 8+9+10
1915 Richard Strauss - Symphony ("eine Alpensinfonie")
1916 Charles Ives - Symph 4
1917 Sergei Prokofiev - Symph 1 ("symphonie classique")
1923 Jean Sibelius - Symph 6
1924 Jean Sibelius - Symph 7
1925 Sergei Prokofiew - Symph 2
1927 Dmitri Shostakovich - Symph 2
1928 Anton Webern - Symphony (op.21)
1930 Igor Stravinsky - Symphony of Psalms
1932 Arnold Bax - Symph 5
1934 Paul Hindemith - Symphony ("Mathis der Maler")
1936 Sergei Rachmaninow - Symph 3
1939 Arnold Bax - Symph 7
1939 Arnold Schoenberg - Chamber Symph 2
1940 Igor Stravinsky - Symphony in C
1942 Dimitri Shostakovich - Symph 7 ("Leningrad")
1942 Bohuslav Martinu - Symph 1
1943 Dimitri Shostakovich - Symph 8
1943 Béla Bartók - Concerto for Orchestra
1945 Arthur Honegger - Symph 3
1946 Aaron Copland - Symph 3
1948 Olivier Messiaen - Turangalila-Symphony
1949 Benjamin Britten - Spring Symphony
1950 Arthur Honegger - Symph 5
1951 Paul Hindemith - Symph ("die Harmonie der Welt")
1952 Erich Korngold - Symphony (op.40)
1953 Bohuslav Martinu - Symph 6
1954 Witold Lutoslawski - Concert for Orchestra
1957 Dimitri Shostakovich - Symph 11
1957 Ralph Vaughan Williams - Symph 9
1959 Karl Amadeus Hartmann - Symph 7
1963 Karl Amadeus Hartmann - Symph 8
1967 Witold Lutoslawski - Symph 2
1967 Allan Pettersson - Symph 7
1968 Luciano Berio - Symphony ("Sinfonia")
1969 Hans Werner Henze - Symph 6
1971 Dimitri Shostakovich - Symph 15
1971 Arvo Pärt - Symph 3
1972 Allan Pettersson - Symph 10
1972 Alfred Schnittke - Symph 1
1973 Allan Pettersson - Symph 11
1973 Krzysztof Penderecki - Symph 1
1976 Henryk Górecki - Symph 3
1979 Alfred Schnittke - Symph 2
1980 Krzysztof Penderecki - Symph 2
1983 Witold Lutoslawski - Symph 3
1984 Hans Werner Henze - Symph 7
1987 Robert Simpson - Symph 9
1988 Malcolm Arnold - Symph 9
1988/95 Krzysztof Penderecki - Symph 3
1989 Krzysztof Penderecki - Symph 4
1992 Alfred Schnittke - Symph 6
1992 Witold Lutoslawski - Symph 4
1992 Krzysztof Penderecki - Symph 5
1993 Alfred Schnittke - Symph 7
1994 Alfred Schnittke - Symph 8
1994 Philip Glass - Symph 3
1994 Peter Maxwell Davies - Symph 5
1996 Peter Maxwell Davies - Symph 6
1997 Hans Werner Henze - Symph 9
2000 Peter Maxwell Davies - Symph 7+8 ("Antarctic")

[This message was edited by oseidl on WEDNESDAY 12 December 2001 at 22:18.]

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Former member

I am in awe.

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Former member

I am also in awe.

Maybe I should diet, give up the cigars and try and live long enough to appreciate that list.

I vote for Mahler 5,6,9 and, Rite of Spring and (if it is allowed) Carmina Burana - which I have a huge soft spot for as it got me into C20 music even before my first teenage zit.

Jonathan

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Thomas K

Happy birthday, Oliver!

Thomas

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Hermann

Happy birthday from Germany

Hermann

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by David Hobbs-Mallyon

Well most of my favourites have been listed already. I'm suprised Nielsen, and particularly Symphony No 5 does not get a mention - I would personally rate this in my top 5 or so.

David

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Former member

Harris's 3rd symphony is missing - arguably the best American symphony of the 20th Century, although the Copeland is good too.

Also Vaughan Williams symphony no 2.

Dozy

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Todd A

Wow, Oliver (may I call you that), that is some list. Two questions. Why no Carter Symphonia? That is one of the truly great orchestral works of the last quarter century. And which versions of Pettersen's works are worth considering? I know CPO has recorded most or all of his symphonies. Are those the ones to go for (and are there any others)?

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Peter C

My favourite symphonies for the early years of the 20th Century are Sibelius.

Towards the end of the century I like the symphonies of Robert Simpson

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Former member

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Arola:
Wow, Oliver (may I call you that), that is some list. Two questions. Why no Carter Symphonia? That is one of the truly great orchestral works of the last quarter century. And which versions of Pettersen's works are worth considering? I know CPO has recorded most or all of his symphonies. Are those the ones to go for (and are there any others)?

Dear Todd, my list has been meant to be comprehensive but certainly not definitely complete. I am well aware that there are several other symphonists I happened to omit. I do agree that Carter is worth mentioning, and Nielsen as well. The Swedish label BIS has released most of Pettersson´s symphonies up to the present moment and is making an effort to release them all.

Posted on: 15 December 2001 by Phil Barry

Great lists!

I would add that Horenstein is superb in Mahler 6. (Not to mention 1, 4....)

Phil

Posted on: 16 December 2001 by Not For Me

What's 20C in F - I haven't gone metric yet.

Posted on: 02 January 2002 by Todd A

The big list from oseidl has managed to find its way to the Google forum with someone else claiming that the same exact list comprise his favorites. Anyone still interested, there are some additional works cited by other posters beyond those here.

Posted on: 02 January 2002 by herm

what about oseidl?

well, in that case I'd really like to hear oseidl's comments.

Herm