Naim DAC
Posted by: Jonn on 15 June 2009
Be good if anybody going to the first roadshow in Stroud this Thursday could report their impressions of the Naim DAC on the forum - some pictures would be nice as well
Looks like this won't be the final production version as Naim refer to the "latest iteration" on the roadshow website.
Jon (having a day off work)
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
That tends to imply one singular model, i.e. no high end model, and in a blooming 5 series case as well?
So they're still persisting with this are they...? Hmmmm....So you put your little thin cased DAC next to your full sized CDX2 (with bolted on SPDIF) or HDX for that matter...Should look good on a Fraim
SO, I guess the Naim only debates start: Which is better, a CDX2 with external DAC or a HDX with and without said DAC....
I'm really not sure about how this DAC is being put forward...If the dig out on the CDX2 is only going to be available on new machines, I find it hard to believe they are going to fly off the shelves...Anybody with an ounce of sense is just going to get the DAC and sort out their own source to the DAC (most likely computer) or indeed if the money is available then the HDX if you want the best of both worlds (although I find it slightly disconcerting one suddenly needs an additional DAC to make the £4.5k HDX sound 'right')....
It seems to me the DAC is being offered to the marketplace (because they just can't not) rather sheepishly and still bent round to CDP's and all things Naim (although I have no problem with the latter, in essence)....Why not show it off to it's full extent? As already pointed out, why no computer source? Come on, we all know how this DAC is mostly going to be used...Why not show it ? Ignoring the fact that computers exist I would understand if a Naim streamer was in existence or being developed, but not a murmur....
Taking a DAC around the country and linking up to a £3.5k CDP and £4.5k HD/Ripper is essentially preaching to the converted...Show it off with an iMac or more, and you might have more of the masses twittering....No?
Steve
Not really. Any DAC can make a Mac sound better but most favored DACs would make a CDX2s sound worse. That the Naim DAC shows improvement says quite a bit. As for price, wait until you know what's in it and what it sounds like before you judge. If you can't bring yourself to spend $2k, don't but also don't down play it because it may make you feel better about not spending the money. There's no way to know it's true relative value, good or bad, at this time.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by AS332
There are some very exciting products being released at the moment and an excellent time if you are in the market to move to the Naim brand .
Personally , I traveled to last years Summer Sounds very excited about the HDX but in the end it was the Powerline and Superline that stole the show .I decided to wait and see with the HDX and purchased a Network drive , Sonos and Lavry DA10 with a borrowed Powerline instead .
Fast forward to this year and as I said above there are some great products being released to take advantage of the digital age .However ,I have invested in a system for digital playback which is very user friendly , reasonably priced and sounds very very good indeed .
Will the new Naim products sound better than my current set-up ? Yes , no doubt , but will it sound vastly better to justify a huge outlay of funds ? I'm not sure yet , especially as the market for High def downloads is still very small and all my music will be at 16bit CD quality for some time to come .
Interesting times though , I look forward to this years Summer sounds plus home demo's in the future to help make up my mind .
Ed
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by stephenjohn
quote:
But really, are people expected to trade in their current, for example, CDX2 at, say, 50% cost, just to get dig out on the newer improved CDX2?
not me
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by AS332
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Let's get away from this misnomer of a £2k unit. Realistically speaking, to reach the levels of performance being spoken about, you need to add the XPS2 PSU minimum. That makes it a £4.5k (approx) proposition.
Exactly Allen , for this amount of money it has to exceptionally good and blow the competition out of the water .Even then it is still a lot of money .
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by AS332:
... for this amount of money it has to exceptionally good and blow the competition out of the water.
One can never state the obvious too often. Possibly.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by kristeva
I enjoy my £100 Beresford immensely, but I know it's not the end of the road. I've chosen not to explore dac technology any further in anticipation of what Naim might provide. I'm looking forward to hearing it, but in all honesty, I don't expect it to be x20 better than my 7510. Upgrades don't really work like that.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
quote:
Originally posted by AS332:
... for this amount of money it has to exceptionally good and blow the competition out of the water.
One can never state the obvious too often. Possibly.
It probably already has more inboard supply than what most are using and likely linear besides. Doesn't mean it's good until you get to hear it but it would indicate that it may not 'need' an outboard ps better than some other things.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by gary1 (US)
Well it is clear that the L**** lovers will never be happy no matter what Naim does.
Naim said that a separation of the transport and the DAC was not the way to go, but maybe they've learned things during HDX, Bentley, unity which allowed them to reduce noise and jitter, etc... where they are now comfortable with the separation, but to what level at this time? Obviously at least to an improvement of CDX2/HDX, but maybe not to CDS3/CD555.
Allen, despite the "L" crowds affinity for this device it is clear that the people who run Naim do not agree with your assessment of its level of performance.
Short of having the ethernet connection in the new CDP, what's the beef? Other than people want their entire CDP rebuilt so you don't have to spend any money.
For those looking at a purchase there are really nice options, buy a CDX2, upgrade it with a DAC and also use the DAC for downloaded music.
If the MAC/DAC doesn't fit your boat, isn't better than the Lavry, or costs too much money then don't buy it.
We don't know what's coming down the road at Naim. I'd expect another DAC at some point when they feel that they can improve upon the CDS3 and CD555. I would not be surprised to see each of these re-worked and improved with a digital out for use with a better DAC when/if Naim feels they can do it. At that point I'd expect the HDS or HD555 whatever. Paul wrote a few months ago that they still hadn't gotten to the point with the DAC where it would be equal/improve the 555.
It's still early, but things seem to be moving pretty quickly all things considered.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by js
They're valid points but no judging should be done until it's a finished product and you can hear it as a stand alone. I just think you're jumping the gun here. How the CDPs fit in will also become evident at that time. At this point, I'm just happy the reports are positive as these things are always less than fully sorted before production. Time will tell where it fits into the range and peoples needs/budget. Whatever comes out won't please everybody. Wrong case, too cheap, too expensive, no streaming, wrong interface, etc. Wait for a real sample and evaluate from that whether or not it meets your needs or perhaps even changes them.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Adam has edited one of the above posts to say that current CDP's will not be retro-fittable with the dig out. So where does that leave current CDP owners? One of the issues raised by me was what was the point in having a new range of CDP's with dig out, then only use them as a transport? Not what most people will be contemplating when thinking of purchasing the DAC. Far less, trading their CDP, just to get the equivalent dig out version. It's a 'nice extra' for people who buy the new CDP's and then add the DAC, that's all it amounts to.
I don't get this:
1: Why cannot this digital out be retro-fitted to existing CD players?
2: Why would anyone ever want a Naim CD player with digital out?
3: Someone who buys a digital out equipped Naim player would never, in the future, find this a little bit of a bonus when they came to buy a DAC for other digital source components.
4: It seems to amount to a 'nice extra'.
As a wise man once said - "Dare I say - it's an extra."
The CDX2 has been upgraded in many ways (to be announced) and the digital out is but one - it's an extra, not a deal maker.
You seem determined to not have your cake and not eat it.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by JYOW
I can't see why a Naim player cannot have digital out either. A majority of the high end CD players from other makes have digital outs.
However, players externally tattered with DACs are understandably hit or miss with factors such as jitter introduced into the equation. As well, there could be issues with equipment matching and the quality of the external DACs may not be up to par with the player itself.
However, if there is a pre-defined upgrade path and/or special interface for master/slave type clock sync, there is no reason why there could not be a part of the Naim upgrade chain like the PS upgrades. I am even thinking if there shoul dbe special interface just for hooking a Naim transport to a Naim DAC, sort of the digital version of DIN. Some high end transports and DACs work like that I believe.
Of course buying a CDX2 only to be connected to a Benchmark DAC1 or a L**** DAC would be absurd and pointless IMHO. Nothing against them as I used to own both.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
I can't see why a Naim player cannot have digital out either. A majority of the high end CD players from other makes have digital outs.
To: JYOW
I think you may have misread the previous messages?
The new 'generation' of Naim CDP's will have optical outputs. It is just that the current ones which don't have one right now, cannot be modified to get one, as I understand it.
-
Aleg
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by BobF
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
Bob - I'm more than sure it sounds f*^$**! amazing - I would expect it to, hence being a Naim fan....
However, this wasn't the point being made...
Hi Steve
I did not mean to imply that you did not expect the DAC to be very good. I understand your point about broader appeal. It seems to me that Naim (who always take a different approach)are placing more importance on the ripping/reading (storage and perhaps streaming) stage than some others. The point I was trying to make was that maybe Naim feel you need to do it their way to keep the magic (great timing). Of course I should have explained this view better and since I have not heard the new DAC I am only speculating ... so probably ignore the whole thing
Cheers
Bob
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by JYOW
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
I can't see why a Naim player cannot have digital out either. A majority of the high end CD players from other makes have digital outs.
To: JYOW
I think you may have misread the previous messages?
The new 'generation' of Naim CDP's will have optical outputs. It is just that the current ones which don't have one right now, cannot be modified to get one, as I understand it.
-
Aleg
Understand, I was just commenting on the fact that digital outs are not a bad idea.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by Jack Barron
quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
A network streamer would do away with SP/DIF and all the issues associated with external connectivity to a DAC. Something similar to the Slim Transporter would be the best of both worlds.
Yeah, that would be excellent.
Jack
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by js
It's not a player so ethernet makes no sense. They already make some streamers. This is a DAC.
Posted on: 20 June 2009 by Mike Smiff
quote:
Originally posted by Mikeie:
quote:
Originally posted by Flame:
Is the digital out the only way the new CDX2 will differ from the current one?
Patrick F's answer,
yes.
So can it be retro fitted to older cdx2's then?
If not,why not?
Although I think the cdx2's dac is a very fine one and the machine gains so much with a power supply upgrade why do we even need a dac with a cdx2?
I would like a great dac for digital replay via cds,iPlayer and Spotify, the later two via pc, heck I might even want to the listen to music downloads!
If naim can now make cd players with a didital out without compromise to there musical ability,would be possible to make one with a digital input?
A Unity
REF source component say with a tradition pre/power,three boxes of joy? or am I barking up the wrong tree.
ps sorry four or five boxes,forgot the obligatory power supply upgrades.
I still have questions above!
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by Bouarb
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Abela:
You will not be able to have a CDX2 converted to the latest spec as far as I know.
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by JYOW
quote:
Originally posted by js:
It's not a player so ethernet makes no sense. They already make some streamers. This is a DAC.
Understand that this is a DAC. When think outside the box, a streamer is just a DAC with Ethernet input in one end and a media player on the other end.
Naim is already making all sorts of streamers but they missed the one that makes the most sense, and that is a pure streamer sans hard discs, no built in integrated amp and everything else under the sun. We need a pure streamer like the Linn DS or the Transporter.
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by SC
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Alas, CDP's with dig out ... not interesting in the least.
Well, it
is if you're wearing slippers and smoking a pipe, it's pretty damn radical...!
S
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by AS332:
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Let's get away from this misnomer of a £2k unit. Realistically speaking, to reach the levels of performance being spoken about, you need to add the XPS2 PSU minimum. That makes it a £4.5k (approx) proposition.
Exactly Allen , for this amount of money it has to exceptionally good and blow the competition out of the water .Even then it is still a lot of money .
Actually, I think you need to hear how the DAC performs before you can judge its performance and VFM. If the DAC outperforms your current solution by a substantial amount then the extra $2k becomes worth the expense to some individuals and not others, So while you might need to add the XPS2/555PS to get the most out of the DAC, it doesn't mean that the stand alone isn't going to be a big improvement over what you've got.
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by AS332
Fair point Gary ,
I'm hoping that the stand alone HDX with new software is better than I've got . Lot less wires !
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by SC
Why are we suddenly in Distributed Audio when the majority of this thread was regarding digital out from CDP....?
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by AS332
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
Why are we suddenly in Distributed Audio when the majority of this thread was regarding digital out from CDP....?
Because Adam says so .
Posted on: 21 June 2009 by SC
quote:
Originally posted by AS332:
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
Why are we suddenly in Distributed Audio when the majority of this thread was regarding digital out from CDP....?
Because Adam says so .
Yeah....A few people have said much the same through history......
