Naim DAC

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
I would surmise that the use of the HDX computer gives them more consistency and higher quality than the majority of Macintosh or PC platforms for the purpose of demonstrating their DAC at these events. It is a known commodity and a reference of its own for many users.

If there was a different PC/Mac at each of these events with myriad configurations including differing rip quality, there would be even more idiotic blathering and conjecture on this forum.

.

If the DAC works better with HDX than with a standard PC/MAC, why not to show it through a demo? This would be good for promoting the HDX,

But my main concern is about the utility of the DAC with a PC/MAC itself. I don't think it is so difficult to use an standard configuration of a MAC for demoing it with the DAC. In fact, I think this was used in the first DAC's demo.

PC is somewhat different because there are more variables to consider but using a MAC through optical connection can be seen as an standard configuration that IMO it is not open
to any "idiotic blathering and conjecture". At least for me, a MAC-NaimDAC would give me a good idea of how the new DAC performs with no low jitter sources.

I can't believe Naim will be launching its DAC only for HDX or some CD players users when the big market is in computer audio. Besides, I guess they would sell much more amps among computer audio users who would get attracted by the Naim DAC.

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
I would surmise that the use of the HDX computer gives them more consistency and higher quality than the majority of Macintosh or PC platforms for the purpose of demonstrating their DAC at these events. It is a known commodity and a reference of its own for many users.

If there was a different PC/Mac at each of these events with myriad configurations including differing rip quality, there would be even more idiotic blathering and conjecture on this forum.

.

If the DAC works better with HDX than with a standard PC/MAC, why not to show it through a demo? This would be good for promoting the HDX,

But my main concern is about the utility of the DAC with a PC/MAC itself. I don't think it is so difficult to use an standard configuration of a MAC for demoing it with the DAC. In fact, I think this was used in the first DAC's demo.

PC is somewhat different because there are more variables to consider but using a MAC through optical connection can be seen as an standard configuration that IMO it is not open
to any "idiotic blathering and conjecture". At least for me, a MAC-NaimDAC would give me a good idea of how the new DAC performs with no low jitter sources.

I can't believe Naim will be launching its DAC only for HDX or some CD players users when the big market is in computer audio. Besides, I guess they would sell much more amps among computer audio users who would get attracted by the Naim DAC.

And where would these discussions be going in that context? They're showing some new products and probably don't want the bulk of discussion to be about HDX vs MAC as these seem to migrate to. There's no win in that when they are just showing their wares in what they are probably trying keep a friendly environment. I'm sure that it's a conscious effort to avoid every mention of the dem turning into the same heated discussion. Those comparisons can be done when the products are finished and for sale. I suspect it may have been done for the displaying dealers with PC/MACs behind closed doors but with the perspective that aspects of the unit aren't finished. If they haven't yet fully implimented their jitter bits, for instance, the comparison at this time would be meaningless relative to production. That it will improve a computer's out from compressed or non compressed sources is understood by all so I don't think that dem critical.

I agree that the amount of improvemnet from different sources will be but probably not fully representative at this time. I also agree that computer is part of the target market. If the HDX as source sounds better, they lose in some minds as it will be said it's jitter circuit isn't good enough or it's made specifically for an HDX etc which may in no way be the case. It may also put off MAC users in general. A better perspective can be gained when in production and compared to other DACs and sources in private. Comparing to other products is also something Naim generally doesn't do in factory dems. These dems tend to be all Naim, all the time and not about comparing to other products. That comes after introduction and at your dealer or home.

All understood js but the HDX and CDX2 are decent integrated solutions and as Naim put in the summer sounds blurb

We will have the latest iteration of the DAC with us on the Summer Sounds roadshow and we will be delighted to let you hear it in operation. You can hear how the DAC transforms computer sound as well as how it performs with other digital sources.

Probably why myself and others wonder why no computer demos. I agree though that in the home and in the context of your own system is the best place.

James

As metioned. HDX can interface computer sources or even be considered one. Latest would indicate that there is more to come. Don't get me wrong, that statement could seem misleading about the dem but it's really much ado about very little at this point in time. We're picking at nits.
Perhaps they just changed their mind from trade show experience. The computer as souce discussions tend to become quite dominant here and they are showing 4 new products.

I just read through this thread piecemeal, and just want to make sure--there is precisely one person reporting on the sound quality at the demo, and 5 pages of useless argument about what the DAC should be or should have been?

I very much appreciate the one report but I'm with js--let's see what the Naim DAC IS and DOES before judging it. If it works from a Mac TOS or a TC Konnekt as well as any other source, then the streaming isn't as big an issue, though I would love an affordable Naim streamer (and the Uniti makes it appear possible) or ideally streamer/DAC.

Well, I'm judging the new DAC, and I have to say it makes quite an improvement to the HDX, and is a rather good piece of kit. The demo today was with an HDX with the DAC and XPS2, so I will only assume it will be even better with the 555PS. There seem to be lots of buttons on the DAC, which double as controls for an iPod when connected (there will be a remote control also), as well as input switches when the iPod is not connected. My feeling was that these are features I really don't need or want to pay for, but I can understand why they've been thrown in to widen the appeal of the box. For me, a DAC in a shoebox would be fine.
Soundwise, it's a no-brainer for the HDX, but one wonders why the HDX DAC is shown up to be weaker (although you will read elsewhere that the HDX is no slouch). Obviously, there's a lot of overspill from CD555 developments in the DAC box.
And the politicians in the black shirts were not denying that a reference DAC is on the cards.
But one thing really did sound attractive, and I had not appreciated it before. Because the whole thing is UPnP enabled, you could plug in your iPod/iPhone, and use it as a wireless link to your network, pulling down files wirelessly from your NAS, and controlling it from the iPod interface.
It wasn't clear if the software renderer running on the iPod was something you had to buy or whether it is freeware, but it made a lot more sense in the context of an iPod system.
Now that's a system configuration I had not thought of.
It was very interesting chatting to Gary Crocker on some of these issues, as the NaimUniti also has the ability to integrate with similarly UPnP devices on the network.
I'm not quite sure if I'm up to speed on this - suitably more qualified people like Jon Honeyball will probably put me right - but it makes the feature set of the DAC look much more logical
Cheers
John

John - are we talking uniti or DAC here ? - the uniti can stream (using UPnp) but i thought the DAC couldn't. If so the DAC has an Ethernet interface ?

I was quite surprised at the difference adding the DAC to the HDX made, a functionally stripped down version (no playing from usb, heck no usb at all) priced in line with the XS range would be almost a no brainer for me to upgrade to. As it is 'll be having a listen when it comes out, I've no idea how the HDX compares to my current sources (a lot better I expect) and the dac with no PSU was a good step up from the HDX.

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
John - are we talking uniti or DAC here ? - the uniti can stream (using UPnp) but i thought the DAC couldn't. If so the DAC has an Ethernet interface ?

In the demo they said by plugging an iPod into the usb on the DAC and running uPnP software on the iPod you could use the iPod as the network streaming device (via WiFi) which would then feed the DAC.

Ah ok - bit of a faff then.

Ta

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
John - are we talking uniti or DAC here ? - the uniti can stream (using UPnp) but i thought the DAC couldn't. If so the DAC has an Ethernet interface ?

The DAC has no Ethernet. As matt says, the network interfacing would be by a plugged-in uPnP device like iPod.
But considering I had never thought this was possible anyway, it struck me as a useful feature, especially as I have no ethernet wires anywhere near my lounge.
But if you want connectivity, NaimUniti is the beast - a very well thought out piece of kit....

quote:

Originally posted by matt303:


In the demo they said by plugging an iPod into the usb on the DAC and running uPnP software on the iPod you could use the iPod as the network streaming device (via WiFi) which would then feed the DAC.

That is simply bizarre... you hard wire the "wireless" device, then control with a remote? seriously?

Why do all the new products, not exclusively referring to Naim here, have to be some kind of Hifi equivalent of a swiss army knife?

If you feed the DAC a signal from a computer, why oh why would one want to connect the iPod to the DAC? Why not connect it directly to the puter, OR simply play the files from your computer directly.

Now somehow controlling the DAC with a iPhone/Pod, makes a hell of a lot of sense.

But in the end, leave this crap to the uniti and HDXs.... oh wait. too late.... cant WAIT to hear the mofo though!

-p

I am wondering if I am reading this correctly, the new CDX2 is improved by connecting it to an external £2k Naim DAC?

I would have thought the DAC was a key part of a CDP. So, does this mean that the price of the CDX2 gets one a DAC of lower quality than goes in to the £2k DAC, or that the CDX2 has the same quality DAC but NAIM get the DAC to sound better when removed from the CDP box?

I am not seeking to be argumentative, I am trying to understand what is happening - being the owner of a 6 year old CDX2 for which an external DAC is not an option.

Church -

Think we're in a transition phase. As such its difficult to make such inferences.

To succeed to Naim DAC needs to be significantly better than those included in the CDX or HDX - and from early reports - looks like it is!.

I sort agree with -p. Downloading via my phone seems a little strange - BUT - if it delivers the sonic goods I really would care & its a good party trick

Same here but can an Ipod do that? Stream a clocked DIG out to a standard USB jack? I suspect that we're missing a good bit of the story here.

Me too - Its just acting as a portable storage device from the USB jack. You'd need a dock connection and licence (as Wadia i-thingy) to get the data stream to feed to a D/A.

James

So what's going on with the n-Link cable and the Uniti then - does this still just use the iPod's DAC ?

Yep. Taking the audio out through the dock bypassing the internal volume control and properly buffering the output - the iPod is actually quite a decent source using its internal D/A.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by matt303:


In the demo they said by plugging an iPod into the usb on the DAC and running uPnP software on the iPod you could use the iPod as the network streaming device (via WiFi) which would then feed the DAC.

That is simply bizarre... you hard wire the "wireless" device, then control with a remote? seriously?

This sounds like a "free" feature to me. Yeah, it doesn't sound particularly useful, but if the capability is there in the tech already, why disable it?

...do we know when NDAC comes along to the dealer? someone said in august...sure?
ralf

Went to the Summer Event this afternoon.

Apparently the DAC will take ANY bitrate that is fed into it - I thought that there were physical limits, such that 24-192 was not a good idea (although possible), but the Naim guys said that was not the case.

The spdif enabled CD players will only output 16-44.1.

It was stated that the DAC handles jitter by internally re-clocking through a number of memory buffers.

A 16-44.1 wav file was played via an iPod into the DAC, and then compared with the same file ripped and played back by the HDX. This was the best sound of the demo, made the Ovators sing.

Sound?
Who knows, unfamiliar hardware. The DAC did improve the system, but I'll only know if it is worth the asking price when I demo it.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Underhill:
A 16-44.1 wav file was played via an iPod into the DAC, and then compared with the same file ripped and played back by the HDX. This was the best sound of the demo, made the Ovators Sing.

Wow , now that is interesting .

quote:

Originally posted by church warden:
I am wondering if I am reading this correctly, the new CDX2 is improved by connecting it to an external £2k Naim DAC?

I would have thought the DAC was a key part of a CDP. So, does this mean that the price of the CDX2 gets one a DAC of lower quality than goes in to the £2k DAC, or that the CDX2 has the same quality DAC but NAIM get the DAC to sound better when removed from the CDP box?

I am not seeking to be argumentative, I am trying to understand what is happening - being the owner of a 6 year old CDX2 for which an external DAC is not an option.

It's worse/better than that. I have been assured that it outperforms the 555 internal DAC too.

I'm not up to speed either - what can using an ipod (£250) as a streamer do that using a Squeezebox (£150) as a streamer can't?

Rockingdoc, you're right to be argumentative. It looks like a dog's dinner in holistic system terms. Why buy a new CDX2 if you're not going to use 80% of it? And why won't Naim now make a TRANSPORT? (sorry Caps lock got stuck there)

It certainly has the same DAC chip as the 555, and a very similar DAC and filter circuit although the Naim guy I spoke to couldn't confirm whether it was identical. The way he described it was that the DAC itself was from the 555, and the DSP and associated anti-jitter memory buffer came from the Bentley project.

It sounded excellent especially when powered with an XPS2 - imagine what a 555PS would do for it!