Naim DAC

I would really appreciate the end of speculations and a nice white paper from Naim!!!

I just got a peek at some info. Can't spill the beans but what I saw doesn't give the full story either and brings up some other questions. Not exactly a white paper. I will say that their relocking scheme isn't an arbitrary clock, that it should be as jitter immune as is possible and that it works very hard to maintain symmetry on the dig stream. Their circuit 'may' require more latency than a studio could use for mixing etc but it's required to get things done in what looks to be a most effective way. Perhaps this is another example of home gear outperforming studio specific kit due to studios not being able to use a technology for a specific application. Need to step back now and let Naim release info as they see fit.

I hope they publish the latency introduced if it's more than most DACs as it will affect people like myself that use our DAC/HiFi for TV sound.

It's why I said may. I 'inferred' that aspect from the description but it may not be a big deal.

Yeah depends how they've gone about the de-jitter, large or multiple buffers would allow the local clock to change very slowly (so effectively reducing incurred jitter due to changing the clock) to track the incoming data at the cost of increased latency.

It will be interesting if they publish how they've gone about this, my history of working on data acquisition equipment has left me with an interest in the technical side of HiFi.

I'm looking forward to listening to the DAC again once dealers have demo units.

I could imagine that buffering the data leads to latency... This way it should be possible to keep jitter to a minimum. I am sure that Naim will come up with a unique solution and the first reports on sound quality seem to be very promising. I am sure that the Naim DAC is worth the wait.

If you're using a two-channel DAC for playback of video sources (especially those encoded in Dolby surround), you may already be suffering some latency already from the fold-down process.

Would someone in the know please explain latency in digital music file presentation, please?

Those who know the technical stuff seem unable to express themselves in real world terms - unable to explain the implications that the technical stuff has for music replay.

The result is that almost all the writing about the technical side has been completely irrelevant in terms of music replay after I have examined it for myself! I suspect, at a guess, that latency may be something as simple as the msuic arriving a few mileseconds later than it leaves the hard drive, DVD, or CD, in which case it clearly a non-issue, except where it has to co-ordinate with a video picture, which may have a different degree of latency in processing, and therefore be ill-co-ordinated. If it is as simple as that it remains a bloody scandal that this differnce has not yet been sorted out. My solution would be a degree of automatgically variable delay in one or other of the signal types, and a few markers near the start so the system can correct for it in replay. Now go to work you R&D boys ...

It may be fascinating from an electronic and technical standpoint but has no transformational effect on the music.

What does latency do to the music please?

ATB from George

Surround pre's and receivers already do this. I don't see it as a big draw back as video processing always has some lag since everthing already converts and scales in digital displays which is every video display product made today. It's surprising how few people activate these circuits even though there might be a slight offset. It's less bothersome than you may think. I believe these always work by lagging the audio.
For recording work even minor latency makes it difficut for overdubbing when laying down tracks but that would be the only situation really. Mixing to a master isn't effected.

As things stand now sound already reaches your ear a few miliseconds late in everthing with a DAC. It's how many that becomes the question. Some gear will sacrifice sound to reduce latency temporarily to perform a function.

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
But one thing really did sound attractive, and I had not appreciated it before. Because the whole thing is UPnP enabled, you could plug in your iPod/iPhone, and use it as a wireless link to your network, pulling down files wirelessly from your NAS, and controlling it from the iPod interface.

With all due respect I think you may have misunderstood something since the above does not make sense.

First of all the DAC cannot be uPNP enabled if it has no LAN interface. uPNP enablement for a client machine simply means that it could “discover” other uPNP servers (e.g. a PC) on the network and play media from that server. If the DAC has no network interface, it cannot be uPNP enabled.

Secondly, you can plug in any uPNP or other streaming client device digitally via SP/DIF to any DAC to play. Such devices include the HDX, a PS3, a Slim Transporter or Squeezebox, Sonos, a PC, and on.

Thirdly, while technically an iPod Touch or iPhone can be a uPNP client through third party plugins, they are probably the worst device to do such a thing given the audio quality. And unless the DAC has direct access to the digital output of the iPod like the Wadia, this would just be an analogue plug-in from the iPod which can be done with any pre-amp/integrated amps.

I am really at a lost as to by why the iPod could become a centrepiece of this DAC with front panel buttons, it just does not make any sense.

The dems seem to indicate a streaming digital out via usb.

quote:

that latency may be something as simple as the msuic arriving a few mileseconds later than it leaves the hard drive, DVD, or CD, in which case it clearly a non-issue, except where it has to co-ordinate with a video picture

Sounds like you understand the technical stuff perfectly George.

quote:

Thirdly, while technically an iPod Touch or iPhone can be a uPNP client through third party plugins, they are probably the worst device to do such a thing given the audio quality. And unless the DAC has direct access to the digital output of the iPod like the Wadia

...and ??

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
...and ??

?? Please elaborate your ??

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
But one thing really did sound attractive, and I had not appreciated it before. Because the whole thing is UPnP enabled, you could plug in your iPod/iPhone, and use it as a wireless link to your network, pulling down files wirelessly from your NAS, and controlling it from the iPod interface.

With all due respect I think you may have misunderstood something since the above does not make sense.

First of all the DAC cannot be uPNP enabled if it has no LAN interface. uPNP enablement for a client machine simply means that it could “discover” other uPNP servers (e.g. a PC) on the network and play media from that server. If the DAC has no network interface, it cannot be uPNP enabled.

Secondly, you can plug in any uPNP or other streaming client device digitally via SP/DIF to any DAC to play. Such devices include the HDX, a PS3, a Slim Transporter or Squeezebox, Sonos, a PC, and on.

Thirdly, while technically an iPod Touch or iPhone can be a uPNP client through third party plugins, they are probably the worst device to do such a thing given the audio quality. And unless the DAC has direct access to the digital output of the iPod like the Wadia, this would just be an analogue plug-in from the iPod which can be done with any pre-amp/integrated amps.

I am really at a lost as to by why the iPod could become a centrepiece of this DAC with front panel buttons, it just does not make any sense.

As I'm no network expert, I have no problem accepting what you say, but I think that I correctly described how it was decribed to me. Chinese whispers are a wonderful thing
As far as I understand, some software (a renderer?) has to be running on the iPod, and that's what connects to the network. It wasn't clear whether this software was freeware, or whether you had to buy it
Either way, it does seem a clunky way to connect a DAC to a network, but I view it as a bonus that I might play with, rather than a killer feature
Cheers
John

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
But one thing really did sound attractive, and I had not appreciated it before. Because the whole thing is UPnP enabled, you could plug in your iPod/iPhone, and use it as a wireless link to your network, pulling down files wirelessly from your NAS, and controlling it from the iPod interface.

With all due respect I think you may have misunderstood something since the above does not make sense.

First of all the DAC cannot be uPNP enabled if it has no LAN interface. uPNP enablement for a client machine simply means that it could “discover” other uPNP servers (e.g. a PC) on the network and play media from that server. If the DAC has no network interface, it cannot be uPNP enabled.

Secondly, you can plug in any uPNP or other streaming client device digitally via SP/DIF to any DAC to play. Such devices include the HDX, a PS3, a Slim Transporter or Squeezebox, Sonos, a PC, and on.

Thirdly, while technically an iPod Touch or iPhone can be a uPNP client through third party plugins, they are probably the worst device to do such a thing given the audio quality. And unless the DAC has direct access to the digital output of the iPod like the Wadia, this would just be an analogue plug-in from the iPod which can be done with any pre-amp/integrated amps.

I am really at a lost as to by why the iPod could become a centrepiece of this DAC with front panel buttons, it just does not make any sense.

As I'm no network expert, I have no problem accepting what you say, but I think that I correctly described how it was decribed to me. Chinese whispers are a wonderful thing
As far as I understand, some software (a renderer?) has to be running on the iPod, and that's what connects to the network. It wasn't clear whether this software was freeware, or whether you had to buy it
Either way, it does seem a clunky way to connect a DAC to a network, but I view it as a bonus that I might play with, rather than a killer feature
Cheers
John

I believe a wifi Ipod can strem from a remote Itunes library with an inexpensive DOT.TUNES plugin. Don't know what other files it can see with available apps. With a dig out, you're pretty much there as you can play most files (not flac ) through the player. Now I don't think you can load 24/96 files to an ipod but I would suspect that the procesor is capable of it. Does it stream them? None of this is from Naim so I'm also looking for info here from the Apple experts.

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
Chinese whispers are a wonderful thing

Huh???

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
But one thing really did sound attractive, and I had not appreciated it before. Because the whole thing is UPnP enabled, you could plug in your iPod/iPhone, and use it as a wireless link to your network, pulling down files wirelessly from your NAS, and controlling it from the iPod interface.

With all due respect .....

As I'm no network expert, I have no problem accepting what you say, but I think that I correctly described how it was decribed to me....
Cheers
John

Yes John, a similar thing was said at the demo I attended. No details were given, and I didn't ask as I wouldn't use wireless.

As JS says above there is a wireless iPod now, iPod Touch. I presumed that you'd need some server software to serve your files to the iPod, that would interface with your NAS.

I may have misheard but I think Jason said that if you plug the iPod into the DAC it will draw down the necc. iPod plugins from the DAC, and that this over-rode the normal internal routines allowing a better quality of stream from the iPod into the DAC.

I was very interested that you can play WAV files from the iPod ...and Jason said he 'believed' the iPod was going to have a 'plug-in' to enable 9624 files to be passed.


More Chinese Whispers? 2&6 we're going to a dance.

M

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Now I don't think you can load 24/96 files to an ipod but I would suspect that the procesor is capable of it. Does it stream them? None of this is from Naim so I'm also looking for info here from the Apple experts.

Correct - this method is limited to 16/44 (48?) by the iPod but hey.

Naijeru - check out Chinese Whispers in Wikipedia. It's basically about a message being passed verbally from one person to another, and at the end of the line, the meaning of the message can be totally lost through small changes made along the way. I think I heard all this stuff about iPods and DACs, but it probably started off as a discussion about elephants and bananas.
Mr Underhill is referring to something advancing, but I can't remember who paid 12.5 pence

I have read that you can drag a 24/96 file to an Ipod folder if you open it as a drive and that it will play. I have no idea how it recognizes the file but it would make hi-def streaming with info a possibility as it would be accessing a library with hi-def.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Underhill:


More Chinese Whispers? 2&6 we're going to a dance.

M

I think the quote is "send 3 and 4 pence, we're going to a dance"

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Lorenson:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Underhill:


More Chinese Whispers? 2&6 we're going to a dance.

M

I think the quote is "send 3 and 4 pence, we're going to a dance"

TOE-MAY-TOE, TOE-MAR-TOE.

I'm sure there are many variations, but you're right I did miss the 'Send' off the front.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
Naijeru - check out Chinese Whispers in Wikipedia. It's basically about a message being passed verbally from one person to another, and at the end of the line, the meaning of the message can be totally lost through small changes made along the way.

Ah, Telephone! A nice white-paper would cure that problem... I'm a little surprised there hasn't been one yet, isn't the DAC supposed to drop this summer?

Just had a look at the Ndac foto... could it be that it looks smaller than ref series? if so, what would the ref Ndac costs? tx ralf

Yes, it is smaller, 5 case with reference front like the new XS range.

UK price discussed £1,950

Regards

John