Other turntables...

Posted by: Lars on 05 December 2001

I myself, like many others on the forum, use the LP12. My experience on other 'tables is very limited. I would like to know which other options I have if I would like to go for something else. This subject has probably been discussed before but I would be grateful for any input.

Rgds

Lars

It Kan be done!

Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Top Cat

Whilst you can get better, more musical decks, these are typically more expensive* and a well setup LP12 with decent arm, PSU and cartridge is a decent deck indeed.

Unless you find something about the LP12 you don't like, I can't see any reason to change.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

* I'm assuming we're talking s/h. The LP12 at its full, new price can be bettered by a number of cheaper decks.

Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Top Cat:

Unless you find something about the LP12 you don't like, I can't see any reason to change.

I think you missed out "or your wall shelf falls down and it crashes to its doom".

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Mike Sae

The Rega P9 is an Asskicker(tm) of a deck. It's so extreme in its presentation that ppl love it or hate it. Have you heard it?

Has anyone heard the Clearaudio Champion @ UKP1350 (but only USD1200)? It looks silly but supposedly sounds Naim-friendly, with P9 type qualities...

[This message was edited by Mike Sae on THURSDAY 06 December 2001 at 00:22.]

Posted on: 05 December 2001 by sonofcolin

Couldn't agree more than with Mikes "ass kickin" recommendation of the P9. I've had mine for about 7 years and it still kicks ass. Like all good decks it needs to be well isolated.

I've had a pretty good listen to some LP12 set ups. My summary of this deck compared to the P9 would be something like this:

LP12 = pipe and slippers brigade
P9 = would appeal to a 'younger generation' of vinyl listeners.

Not that I have anything against pipes or slippers and I do like the LP12, but it is fiddly to set up, requires lots of care and attention and doesn't sound quite 'right' with more electronica oriented music.

Of course, I could be wrong!

Njoy

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Top Cat

Mike, haven't heard the Champion, but did hear the Evolution (£2800 including arm and Sigma Gold MC). I was demoing it up against the LP12, P9, Xerxes and the Gyrodec SE with SME IV (or was it V?). I also had a listen to a P25 to see if it was a contender.

My gut feeling was disappointment with the P9. It had been the deck I'd been most keen on, due to its simplicity, rave reviews (on this and other forums) and price. The biggest surprise was that it really didn't do it for me. It was the 'fastest' sounding deck I listened to, but wasn't as musical as the LP12 or Xerxes to my ear and preferences. The Gyrodec, despite the expensive arm, didn't do much more me, which was a shame as it's the best looking deck around, and the P25 was good but not up to the standards of the other decks in the comparison. The Xerxes was wonderful, but the real surprise was the Clearaudio Evolution with its oddball arm. I nearly didn't bother listening to this deck as it was just so 'unusual' and I wanted a more conventional deck. However, my disappointment with the P9 made me think it was worth a quick whirl. At first it didn't really shine, but I soon realised that the deck was doing things I really liked and simply letting the music through, more so than the other decks, and doing LP12-like musicality in a much more transparent but musical way. After going back to the P9 for another try, I was again disappointed. I tried the Clearaudio again and thought it basically presented the music in the most detailed, coherent yet musical way.

It wasn't the most expensive deck I listened to, but it wasn't the cheapest. Its appearance put me off at first but I warmed to it after a while. However, the music won me over in the end, and my LP12-as-main-source days are well behind me now.

This is not to say that the LP12 is anything less than a great deck, but it's no longer the best in its (new) price range. Secondhand is another story.

Can't speak for the Champion, but if it shares it's big sister's qualities it will be a fine deck for the money. Just watch the setup - they are incredibly detailed tables and very VTA dependent (okay, so the Sigma MC on the Souther Tangent arm is) - ask Stumo how much difference adjusting the VTA by a millimetre can make to the sound!

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Top Cat

The LP12 is a cracking deck and I also believed there was no other deck to touch it, but then it has also risen dramatically in price over the last couple of years and is now competing in a different league - a bit like a team which has been promoted into the premiership and is now facing much more accomplished opposition.

That's not to say the LP12 is anything less than a great deck - it's just that it can be bettered at its new price. I didn't find the P9 to be a better deck, though, but the CLearaudio definitely is - remember I did own an LP12/Aro/etc. deck for a good while and knew it well...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Lars

Mike,

I havn't heard the P9. I havn't listened to any Rega decks other than the Planar 3. Yesterday I heard the Kuzma Stabi S and thought it was quite promising, but I havn't compared it to the LP12. It could be that this deck does the "hifi thing" better than the music. Has anyone else heard this turntable?

Rgds,

Lars

It Kan be done!

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Mike Sae

Thanks,

Didn't realize you moved to a Clearaudio.
When i've paid off my Neats, i'd like a Clearaudio vs. Rega showdown.

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Top Cat

Hi Mike,

The only reason I moved from an LP12 to the Clearaudio was that my LP12 and its shelf came away from the wall; the deck was ruined but the insurance company was compliant, and I ended up with new for old. Whilst I felt a secondhand LP12 would have been fine, I wasn't given a cash settlement and so had to buy new via a dealer. Given the exorbitant price of new LP12's, I felt that I ought to hear the competition as well, so heard pretty much everything that was available to hear in Edinburgh, and decided that the LP12 is no longer the best deck at its price; in fact, it's getting so expensive as to be distinctly uncompetitive in some respects, but remains a favourite of mine. However, the Clearaudio is special, but EXTREMELY FUSSY ABOUT SETUP - the tangential tracking tonearm is particularly fiddly to get right, and I've only now got the thing sorted to my satisfaction. VTA is particularly important, and 1mm can be the difference between punchy midbass and SBL leanness, if you get my drift. All in all, a fantastic deck, but one that may not appeal to all flat-earther's due to its holographic and transparent imagery. However, it times as well as the best, and is fast and very quiet, but most importantly of all, it combines the musicality of the LP12 with the even-handedness of the Michell decks...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Mike Sae

TC,

What are you using as a dustcover? AFAIK, the Clearaudios don't have 'em. Their website is down, unfortunately.

Did you use a Sigma gold throughout your dem of P9 vs. Evo? Are you say that you felt the Evo did everything the P9 did, but with some nice roundworld effects as well? Or is the P9 just totally different? I suspect I'd prefer the Knives Out approach of the P9.

If a Champion does the biz, that would be ideal as I can directly transplant my BNC'd RB300 onto it, saving time and money.

How long have they been around? I'm wondering about reliablility and the possibility that I'd be left swinging in the wind if they close shop.

quote:
the Clearaudio is special, but EXTREMELY FUSSY ABOUT SETUP

Aye, but really, what isn't?

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Mike Sae

Shahreza,

Perhaps TC is referring to the endless adjusting between 1.95 and 1.96 VTF which garners 20 FEPs.

P3 set and forget? Hell, no. Personally, I like playing with the thickness and type of spacer for my RB300 VTA. I'm going to try headset washers next tee hee.

My spiked Ikea Lack was literally impossible to level.

Shelf material is next. Neuance, I suspect.

Besides, isn't there some gory ritual involving the suspension on a Gyrodec?

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by John C

You should try one of these. Now upgradeable witha new platter to near hyperspace level.

John.

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Top Cat

I think they've been going around 20 years or so - although I might be wrong. We tried a couple of different cartridges, the Sigma Gold MC, a Lyra Lydian Beta (IIRC) and a Dynavector something-or-other (worn in). At this level it's down to personal preference, but the P9 was eclipsed in my opinion, but you may disagree if you were to hear them. Bear in mind that the P9 was a 2001 spec, not the new spec model that's coming out soon. Cables were DNM throughout.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 09 December 2001 by Mike Sae

John C

Re- the Nottingham:
Are they putting dustcovers on turntables anymore?
How would you describe the sound?
How much are those going for? It looks like it'd come in way over budget.
I doubt there's a distributor in Canada.

What's the platter mat made from it looks like formica...

Posted on: 09 December 2001 by John C

Mike no dustcover as such but there is a heavy vinyl LP sized cover. The platter mat is a spongey foam thing.I'm not very good at decsribing the sonic charactersitics but it times beautifully, as good as a Rega, but it also has a big broad sound, very solid and exciting. I believe this is what is known as imaging! I only listen to acoustic jazz and it captures the rhythmn and pace perfectly. Here's a link to the US distributor with a more lucid review from Rob Doorack of Listener who uses a spacedeck I believe. Decks like this are probably rarely used with Naim kit but for me they sound great together. The only thing I don't like is my cartridge.

www.aslgroup.com

The range has been updated recently with the interspace now having a heavier platter much like the spacedeck and an upgrade kit for the spacdeck that elevates its performance even higher.

John

Posted on: 09 December 2001 by Dean Leroy

Hi Mike, The Nottingham tables and arms are imported by the aslgroup.com who are located in Indiana. That would be North America. They come in at $2400 US or so. They also make more expensive and less expensive models. I've seen the Spacedeck and its rather good looking (to me). Two of the tabels have been reviewed very favorably in Listener awhile back. I have the impression that these are good honest bits of hifi. If I'm wrong about the address just google, you'll find it. Cheers, Dean

Posted on: 09 December 2001 by Dev B

Apart from Mullet Audio tea-boy John C's turntable, I would say that there is little to touch a properly installed LP12. I have lived with three different turntables over the last two years and each of them initially offered some thing more attractive than the LP12, but ultimately fell short. The only one that seduced me for a long while was the Well Tempered tt. The problem with turntables is that there are so many variables : arm/ps/cart/support/floor to get right and working harmoniously. Get something wrong and it's easy to blame the whole deck. My advice (but hey at Mullet Audio we are all deaf as our hair is too long) is to stick with the Linn, get a older version, make sure it has an Aro and Mana table, a good stable floor and you shoud be sorted.

regards

Dev (CEO - Mullet Audio)

Posted on: 10 December 2001 by Bob Edwards

Lars--

I agree with Dev in that there is almost nothing to touch a well put together and set up LP12. The challenge these days is finding someone capable of maximizing the deck's performance. I've heard way more TTs than I care to think about; most of them are simply good hifi and bad music. (VPI and Basis being two of the worst offenders.) A well done LP12 simply has an organic rightness to it's musical presentation, no matter which power supply, arm, etc. it is equipped with.

As far as other TTs, I owned a Roksan Xerxes X with the maxed out power supplies for about a year, with a Rega RB900 or Naim Aro arm. (The Aro, incidentally, unceremoniously decimates the RB900 on either the Xerxes or an LP12). While the Xerxes is leaner/better controlled in the bass than the LP12 and is similarly tuneful, it is not as organically right sounding--all of a piece sounding--as the LP12 I have now (Geddon/Aro/Troika/Prefix). My impression is that the Xerxes X is a very good table that might work better into a system that has a bit of warmth to it--like a system with ProAc speakers or CJ electronics.

I've also heard the P9 extensively and while it is quite good it does not do scale well and actually sounds somewhat bandwidth limited relative to top flight LP12. It also sounds rather metronomic--it seems to impose it's own sense of timing on music and I hear less difference in timing from record to record on the P9 than on the LP12 or Xerxes. Probably not the best choice for big systems (and I can't think of anyone with 500/NBL or DBL running a P9) but a great value and terrific in systems up to the 82/supercap/250 level. When I had one in house it sounded rather thin and small through SBLs.

I think if I were you I'd either stick with the LP12 and upgrade it when possible (if desired) or have a listen to what is available in your neck of the woods and invest in whatever sounds best to you.

Cheers,

Bob

Posted on: 10 December 2001 by Laurie Saunders

I use a Michell Orbe/smeV/Lyra/helikon. Sounds fantastic, especially with the Prefix/hi-cap. Used to have a Gyrodek/QC/RB300/Ortophon MC25FL - works fine with the 72/82 but the 52 really shows the limitations of the arm. The SMEV on the Gyrodek QC is great with the 52, until you hear what the Orbe can do.

Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Rob Doorack

I'm quite a fan of the Spacedeck (I haven't heard any of the other NA decks). It defies the stereotype that high mass unsuspended turntables are great at imaging, soundstaging and all that frame-around-the-picture stuff but can't carry a tune. I have no idea how Tom Fletcher, NA's designer, manages this feat. The Spacedeck was clearly superior to my old Xerxes and in many ways betters the pricier Xerxes X in my opinion. Here in the Colonies an armless Spacedeck is $1500; if you can't afford the $1K Spacearm then Regas are an excellent alternative (I've got an RB-900 on mine). The Spacedeck's very clever split collet arm mount gives a Rega easily adjustable VTA. I had a machinist modify the collet and mount on my Spacedeck and I now have over 1 1/4" of arm height range.

Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Frank Abela

I wish it really was in space - I dislike the thing, finding it a little bright and 'obvious' in character. It's all about broad brush strokes and no detail and it bores me to death.

The Gyrodec is much better in my view, with less character, more expansive, better detail retrieval and none of that 'obviousness' I find so distracting in the Spacedek. It pays to have a decent arm on there other than the Regas which, although good starter arms, don't really let the Gyro give of its true capabilities. Suitable arms include SME IV, Wilson benesch ACT0.5. I use a Mission Mechanic rewired with the Incognito (fantastic upgrade to Rega arms as well) with excellent results on my Gyro. Not too impressed with the SME V on the Gyro - I feel it kills the life a bit.

Other options at around this price would be Well Tempered's Record Player. Rega's new P9 2000 has been a long time coming and we still haven't seen it yet. It will also be a good competitor no doubt. If it improves on the old P9's scale and drama, then it will be VERY good indeed.

I also quite like (with reservations) the Wilson benesch Full Circle. You must include the PLA cartridge - there seems to be a synergy betwen the three WB components. Changing the cartridge to other makes simply made things worse for us. It can be a bit relentless or metronomic on the wrong day, and yet I've also had good results occasionally.

I've also heard the SME 10 sound both bad and good in different situations. It's very capable indeed. Overall, I'd put that on my list as well.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.