Adventures in Round Earth

Posted by: Bob Edwards on 23 May 2003

All--

I've been a committed Flat Earther since the first time I heard an LP12/Nait 1/Kan system back in 1983 as I was searching for a better tape deck (of all things). The saleman asked what I would be recording from, and when I told him, he did the classic turntable dem. First he played an NAD--the one with the infamous "floppy" tonearm. Best sound I'd ever heard. Next came Heybrook TT2, with an LVX arm and K9. Absolutely devastated the NAD to my utter surprise. Finally, he played an LP12/LVX/K9, which in turn made the Heybrook sound pretty boring. I was hooked--I haven't had a dem that good before or since.

In any event, I wound up with a system of LP12/LVX Plus/K9/Nait/Index and haven't looked back, even taking the Nait and the Index speakers to Korea while in the Army. I have, however, often wondered what it would be like to live with a "round earth" system of the type so praised by most of the bigger hifi magazines, like TAS and Stereophile.

I decided to finally find out, and found a used Classe DR-9 power amp, Classe DR-6 preamp, and an Audio Research CD-1 CD player, to go with Celestion SL700 speakers I borrowed (also bought a pair, but they were in such bad shape I sent them back). For wiring, I used Wireworld Eclipse (CD to pre) and Equinox (pre to power), with Polaris II speaker cable. Wireworld was used because the local Classe dealer said it worked well with Classe, others I've talked to have agreed. While it might not be the ultimate "round earth" system (no tubes), I've never heard anyone call ARC or Classe remotely "flat."

After getting everything, plugging it in for a while, and trying some CDs, I was about ready to box it all up and sell it off. The system was definitely airier, spacier, did imaging better, was richer etc. but it couldn't play a tune to save its life. It was really bad.

Then, I left it to warm up for a few days and listened again. OK. NOW I can see why someone would like it. Warming up helped with everything, but most notably the tune--it is possible to follow it now. Now that my ear/brain doesn't have to work so hard to put the tune back together, I can hear a lot of very pretty stuff--detail, smoothness, warmth, better imaging, etc. the other thing that is impressive is the bass, which seems to go quite low without turning to mush--the power amp really seems to be able to grip the speakers.

Just for fun, I put the Kans back in the system and compared the Classe to the Nait 1. This was perhaps the epitome of flat versus round. The Kans, to their credit, changed character totally depending on the system. With the Nait 1, they did everything you'd expect them to, and simply outclassed the Classe gear in terms of tune and rhythmic accuracy (no pun intended). This was really audible on Bob Mould's album Workbook, where the guitar solo in the song "Lonely Afternoon" was easier to follow and was more involving. However, with the Classe gear in the system, the Kans sounded MUCH bigger--much more akin to what they sound like when driven by 135s. For example, in the song "Wishing Well" the cello had a lot more weight and warmth than it did with the Nait. The Classe was also able to tame the Kans overexuberance, making them tonally more palatable.

Finally, I tried the Classe gear driving my SBLs with NACA5, in place of my usual 72 (soon to be 52!)/Supercap/250 system, with a CDX/XPS and LP12 as front ends. The bigger Naim electronics closed a lot of the gap with respect to image precision, sheer power, and so on. The Classe system still had the edge in imaging, soundstaging (SBLs CAN do a soundstage! Who knew?), and had a certain warmth and richness the Naim electronics don't have. The only problem was that the Naim electronics opened up a serious can of whupass on the Classe system in terms of tunefulness, dynamics, speed, and involvement. It wasn't even close. The CDX/XPS against the ARC CD player was pretty dramatic--the ARC was just tuneless.

So, what I think I've learned: For someone who doesn't "get" tune, a round earth system offers a lot of attractive qualities, including soundstaging, imaging, detail, richness, etc. They also really do let you hear exactly where things are. For someone who "gets" tune, they are likely to listen and just shake their head--the ARC/Classe system I put together just doesn't do it. Substituting the CDX/XPS or the LP12 cures that and allows the Classe gear to show that it can play in tune somewhat, though it was handily outperformed in that regard by a Nait 1. Just goes to show the difference in priorities.

Finally, I'd say the Naim system was FAR more musically involving, while the ARC/Classe system was sonically "prettier." At the end of the day, the ARC/Classe system was just not as interesting and fun to listen to.

Anyone else tried it?

Best,

Bob
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Twelveeyedfish
Yes Mr Bob.

Lived happily dissatisfied with it for years until I could finaly afford Naim!

I first heard my Naim being called in 1998 - the 3 series gear. I now have the identical setup to what I heard then! Smile I'm sooo happy Smile I'm also learning more instruments now!

Andrew

Andrew

there are 10 types of people in this world... those who can read binary, and those who can't...
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Twelveeyedfish
As you can see I'm very fond of my naim! I just wrote it twice! :P

Andrew

there are 10 types of people in this world... those who can read binary, and those who can't...
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Todd A
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Edwards:
Anyone else tried it?


While I have never lived with a true, round-earth hi-fi, I used to have two smaller, cheaper systems where one was flat earth and one was round-earth. The flat earth system was a CD3.5, Nait 5, FlatCap2, and MA 700PMCs. The round-earth system was a Rega Planet, Arcam Alpha 9, and KEF Q65s. The Naim system was superior to my ears, but even at such a budget conscious level, the Rega / Arcam / KEF setup did the soundstaging and imaging thing better. Okay, some may say that Rega and Arcam are not completely round-earth, but they are more so than Naim.

I've also done some relatively lengthy auditions of round earth gear at some local dealers. (I'm talking about 30-60 minutes at a time.) I remember listening to a Mark Levinson / B&W big rig that did every round-earth trick superbly, but it bored me to tears. Here was a $60000 system that couldn't play a tune anywhere near as good as my Nait-based system. I've had similar experiences with a number of other setups.

Of course, the new Naim stuff is the best solution. It keeps the best of the old traits and improves on some round-earth things, too. I don't hate round-earth stuff, or at least not all of it – I could easily live with a McIntosh or Spectral or Sim based system – but generally I cannot imagine spending big money just for a soundstage and pretty aural effects.
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Dan M
A few months back I went to an 'open house' at one of the local dealers. I sat down in front of some mega-buck system (lots of plexiglass in the tt and what looked like Boulder amps). Yep, the speakers disappeared, and each musician was isolated in space. Left after one song - bored to death. For me, my little sistem wiped the floor with it. Round earth - where he/she is playing; flat earth - what he/she is playing. Not sure if naim now 'doing the imaging thing' is a good move - it might tend to be just a distraction from the music - but I haven't done the dem.

So Bob, perhaps you should sell off the round earth stuff for some ultra low power tube amps and horns Razz . I'd like to know what all the fuss is about.

cheers,

Dan
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Dan M
That's the problem with these silly email faces, you pick one, only to check back later and see it's sticking its tongue out! No offence meant,

cheers,

dan
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by JohanR
Don't tell anyone, but I have owned some big american round earth loudspeakers from Von Schweikert.

When listened to in the dealers big room they really did the soundstaging and such stuff in a believable way (as opposed to just throwing images around the room). Particulary Robben Fords live recording "The official bootleg" (or what it's called) was very impressive, one could actually be fooled to beleive that the musicians where sitting in front of us, in the same room!
As I thought they PRaT'ed well I bought them. Never managed to repeat that experience in my considerably smaller room and with my Naim electronics. They where just boring, neither soundstage nor PRaT. So off they went (they have been quite hyped here in Sweden so I could sell them without to much of a loss).

I will never try the Round Eartht route again!

JohanR
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by Hermann
quote:
Round earth - where he/she is playing; flat earth - what he/she is playing. Dan


A dealer once made a good point as we discussed Naims position against other brands. He said it slighly different then you, "Round earth - where they're playing; Flat earth - why they're plaing.

He's still right so far. Will have a demo of new stuff at Frankfurt show.

Cheers,
Hermann
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by plynnplynn
quote:
Originally posted by Hermann:

Will have a demo of new stuff at Frankfurt show.

Cheers,
Hermann


When is the Frankfurt show Hermann?
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by Hermann
plynnplynn

Have a look
It's from 29.05 - 01.06.2003

Cheers,

Hermann
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by plynnplynn
quote:
Originally posted by Hermann:
plynnplynn

Have a http://www.highendsociety.de/
It's from 29.05 - 01.06.2003

Cheers,

Hermann


Thanks Hermann

I had found it and was having a look at availability and prices of flights. My wife and I have friends who live in Schwalbach. For a moment I had thought that in a weekend (Saturday-Sunday) we could visit them and go to the show but two days is not enough time to do both. There are no direct flights from Aberdeen and that means so much lost time.

Impressive list of contributors for the show.
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by Hermann
Sorry Bob it's OT

Well will be there for listening new CD3.

Cheers,
Hermann
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Bob Edwards
Herman--

All will be forgiven if you report back on the CDS3.

Dan--you know, maybe what I REALLY need to try IS the single ended tube thing--maybe with horn speakers.......Not.

I've had a good time with the Classe gear. If only it sounded a little bit faster/more tuneful I'd be really impressed.

Best,

Bob
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Minky
Bob,

Thanks for the first interesting thread for a while.

When I was in Melbourne a few years ago I decided to have a bit of fun so I rang up the most up-market hi-fi store in town and made an appointment. I told them I wanted them to "knock my socks off".

I arrived and was introduced to the system that they had assembled. I can't remember what the amps were but they were huge. I think that they probably had to have them craned in through the roof because I don't think that the old wooden staircase would have supported their weight. The speakers were Sonus Fabers. I remember that they were on marble or granite stands.

Anyhoo. I had a few CD's with me. John Scofield, Thelonious Monk and I remember how initally stunned I was by what I (small town Naim boy) took to be a holographic soundstage. Facinating. After about 10 minutes the special effects had worn off (a bit like "The Matrix Reloaded") and I turned my attention to the music and there wasn't any. I keep asking the guy to turn the volume up in the vain hope that I would feel something [insert condom analogy here]. Nope. Just a tightening in the throat from the frustration of being unable to connect with some of my favorite blub music.

Anyway, that was my last brush with a bonafide round earth system. At the risk of getting it "wrong" my new amp's appear to do this stuff quite well (or I could be wrong - who cares).
Posted on: 31 May 2003 by Bob Edwards
So much for that!

Well, the round earth experiment is now terminated. I had a chance to purchase a 52/Supercap and took it; the 52 is now upstairs in place of the 72. Truly a remarkable preamp! The improvement is hard to believe, even having heard 52s extensively.

So, the ARC and Classe gear is now sold. I did listen to the Classe one last time while it was still warmed up, and my impressions didn't change: Very good sound, not so good music. It sounds like the stuff could be made to play music a lot better--the combo at least let you hear the difference in tune between a CDX and CDX/XPS, as well as the LP12. It just sounded slow.

I certainly would not claim to have covered the round earth waterfront with this experiment--far too much gear out there. However, at least now I've tried it and satisfied my curiosity--what the Classe stuff did well isn't nearly as important to me as what the Naim gear does well. And with the 52 any advantages the Classe had over the 72/Supercap were eliminated.

All in all, an interesting and relatively cheap experience. I can highly recommend it if you have some spare time and want to noodle about.

Best Regards,

Bob
Posted on: 31 May 2003 by ClaudeP
I did an interesting flat-earth / round-earth comparison a few months ago when my friend decided to put his 102/Hi/140/PEL Concept ML2 on sale to acquire a Jolida valve integrated and Royd loudspeakers.

I went to his place while he still had both systems and we did a thorough comparison. I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE HE WAS CHANGING THE NAIM GEAR FOR THE US VALVE INTEGRATED AMP.

Î guess the earlier posts have summarized it right - the round-earth system was warmer - no sibilence whatsoever and no "edgy" highs - but the system totally failed at reproducing the least bit of PRaT. As my wife - who is not an audiophile but loves music- said, it was all sound, no music.

Well, there is a good thing to everything - I seized the opportunity to upgrade from Nait 3 to 102/Hi/140. Smile
Posted on: 02 June 2003 by timster
Bob, up until about 14 months ago, I had a proceed cdp, audio research pre and classe 700 power. Years, prior to this I had a tube setup and just wanted something that was more reliable and had more authority, hence the aforementioned system. Unfortunately, whilst it had all the traits of the round earth properties other have described, it seemed to suck all the life out of the music. The consequence was that I didn't enjoy listening to music, so much so, I lost interest. Of course, I believed (erroneously) that this was the result of "progress" and accuracy and so on was what it was all about, until about a year ago when I switched to naim; Oh my gawd, it breathed life back in to music. Fabulous, no more interconnect or speaker cable song-and-games to care about, a simple upgrade approach. Now I find I'm back to listening to music everyday and cannot bear to be without it. My admittedly limited experience of dealers here in Canada are that they tend to fall in to the round earth view of things, which I say is unfortunate because too many customers are placed unsuspectingly on a path that leads to long term dissatisfaction. Anyway that's some of where I've been,
tim
Posted on: 02 June 2003 by Bob Edwards
A couple of responses....

John--I did try the CDX/XPS and the LP12/Geddon/Aro/Troika/Prefix/Hicap into the Classe gear driving both SBLs (with NACA5) and the Celestion SL700s (using the Polaris II). Using the Naim CD and the LP12, I could hear why people liked the Classe gear (the power amp dated from 1988 or so and the preamp from about 91) so much. Listening to the LP12, in particular, was enjoyable. I'd say the ARC was the weakest link by a wide margin--the bare CDX absolutely devastated it, and adding the XPS made the ARC really sound like bad digital. With the better sources the Classe combo sounded quite good, but was just too slow sounding to be involving (for me at least).

Also, hearing SBLs doing a competent--emphatically NOT great--but competent job of soundstaging was a hoot with the Classe combo. I don't mean to say the combination was terrible at playing music because it was not. Given the best sources I have, they were OK and I can easily hear why someone less attuned to what Naim (and a few others) does so well would really like it. It is always interesting to have people over--they invariably ask about the music that is playing and not the gear. What I've noticed with "round earth" systems is that people pay more attention to the gear and never (in my experience at least) ask about the music.

Tom--When I use the term "round earth" I generally mean that it focusses more on imaging, soundstaging, frequency extension, tonality, and so on at the expense of pitch and rhythmic accuracy, tunefulness, and dynamics. I agree with you about soundstaging potentially being somewhat surreal--I've never heard a singer with a mouth 8 feet wide, and other similar absurdities, which is something I have heard from some systems.

Best,

Bob
Posted on: 03 June 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
Please be aware that I think the new Naim gear sounds a good deal different to the old gear. The older stuff is coming across to me as more coarse than "lively".

Interestingly, I've heard older gear fronting both LP12s and CD players recently. The LP12 seems to integrate much better with older gear, and I wonder if it is simply synergy, i.e. a slightly "soft" sounding deck, mixed with a slightly coarse sounding set of amps, leading to a good overall sound. Well at least until you put a CD player on the front...

So I'm a big backer of the re-voiced newer amps, which to me sound miles better with CD.