Help: Solti/Ashkenazy Beethoven Concertos

Posted by: Tam on 18 July 2005

FAO Todd, or any other forum Beethoven experts.

I recently picked up this set (it was only £13 in hmv, so I could hardly say no). And fascinating it is too.

Anyway, I was listening to the 4th concerto and couldn't help noticing the cadenza in the 1st movement which is so markedly different from the one on my benchmark recording (50s Kempff). Now, of course Kempff wrote his own, beautifully understated cadenza, so I wondered whether Ashkenazy was using his own, one of Beethoven's or one by someone else entirely. I immediately scanned through the absolutely useless liner notes which had absolutely nothing to say on the subject.

So, if anyone can clear it up it would be nice.



regards,

Tam
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by graham55
Tam

Beethoven wrote two cadenzas for the first movement of the Fourth Concerto. I haven't heard the Ashkenazy set, so I don't know which, if either, he plays on that recording.

It can be quite startling, when you're used to a particular piece of music, suddenly to hear something different. Have you heard Schneiderhahn's Beethoven Concerto, in which he uses an adaptation of a cadenza which Beethoven wrote with violin and percussion?

G
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by Tam
Graham,

No, haven't heard the Schneiderhahn.

I am aware Beethoven wrote two sets, so I might try listening to some of my other recordings and seeing if I can spot the cadenza there. I remember the Solomon cadenza (which I think was the later of Beethoven's two) also being strikingly different from the Kempff that I am used to.

Even without such obvious things as cadenzas, it's amazing what how different two interpretations can sound the difference between, say, Furtwangler and Mackerras's beethoven symphonies (both great sets, but for entirely different reasons).


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by Tam
Well, I think I've answered my own question after much listening. First I tried Solomon, who uses the more complicated and extravagant of Beethoven's two cadenzas (this is not the one Ashkenazy chooses). Then I tried Barenboim who uses the other, which is the same as Ashkenazy. What would be interesting to know is at what times both were written (I myself prefer the simpler one, and the kempff cadenza still further).



regards,

Tam
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by graham55
Tam

I believe that the shorter one (also played, if I recall correctly, by Gilels and Pollini) was the second of the two that Beethoven wrote. I don't have composition dates for either, nor any info on why he wrote a second. But I'll check books, record sleeves, etc.

(Currently listening to Die Walkuere from the Proms, which has yet to catch fire.)

G
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by Tam
Graham

Thanks, but don't worry too much about the composition dates.

Has Walkure started already. Damn. BBC4 must be running behind then as I'm sure the RT said 7:30.

I saw the production at ROH (though Bryn was ill that night and Domingo wasn't singing). I thought it was a terrible production but music and singers weren't too bad at all. That said, I've always felt the first act drags terribly.


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by pe-zulu
Tam,

IMO LvB´s cadenzas to the 4th piano concerto both contain music of the highest artistic value, and they complete the picture of LvB the pianist in an otherwise unattainable way, since they give at least some idea about his legendary art of improvizing, and much better than e.g. the Fantasy g-minor op.77, which even is his only work in this genre.

Regards,
Posted on: 18 July 2005 by Tam
Poul,

I do see what you mean about the cadenzas (i think that's particularly true of the more complex one that solomon plays). That said, I love what Kempff does with his, and the understated way he just repeats the main theme just makes that opening movement perfect for me.



regards,

Tam