The metal on the wrist

Posted by: graphoman on 14 August 2003

attn. of Tom Alves

Discussing the disturbing field of tv sets etc. I suggested our active friend Tom Alves to try an old trick of mine. He made a joke of it but at the end he accepted the conditions. I quote him:

Originally posted by graphoman:
“I can’t remember if I’ve suggested a trick you may try. You listen to music first on your usual way, then with a metal ring around your wrist. (Thick copper band is the best, but a few turn of thick copper wire is enough. Even the metal band of a watch would meet the case.) If you think you do percept the difference in A-B test, then you may try it in the presence of another person who don’t know about your trick. (You may stand behind him.) Would you try it?”

Tom’s report:
„OK, as I said I'm game for a laugh. Bands of metal are scarce in our house but I have a metal watch strap so I used that. I listened with and with out the watch on my left wrist sitting over my heart chakra. I repeated the experiment five times to the same piece of music. What did I notice? er, well it was a bit inconclusiveas the effect was quite subtle (a lot more than changing spurs) but overall I would say there was more crispness wearing the watch and more richness without it.
Having said that it really was a profound change nor one that will have me reaching for my watch. If I really did notice the change then I would say the sound changed but not for better or worse, just different presentation. Tom”

Yes, the metal band does have an effect but it obviously can be denied. One can say “the coldness of the metal could give the feeling of cooler sound” or “it’s mere psychedelic” etc. Now let’s play it further:

Imagine your guest listens to your music and you stay behind him. Now you can conduct an A-B blind(!) test when you tell him every time “it’s position A” and “it’s position B”, respectively. Of course, you don’t let him know what the difference between the two conditions is. If he does feel the effect you may inform him subsequently.

I’ve made this experiment with more than 1000 (thousand) persons. Would you try you as well? Then we can comparing notes.

graphoman

Posted on: 14 August 2003 by garyi

Well done Graphaman I am not sure I know a 1000 people, let alone get them to do such an ubsurd experiement!

Posted on: 14 August 2003 by Roy T

Does Peter Belt know of this?

Auric

Posted on: 14 August 2003 by john rubberneck

I recently tried this experiment with my grandfather as he has a copper wrist band to ward against arthritis, after several attempts at a fair comparison, the temperature has been so variable lately he came to the conclusion that there is little to no difference, mind you he is deaf in one ear as for myself I could detect none.

Stuart

Posted on: 15 August 2003 by graphoman

Quote:
“Well done Graphaman I am not sure I know a 1000 people, let alone get them to do such an ubsurd experiement!”

Believe it or not, it really has been more than 1000 participants present on our “séances” or has been reporting to done the copper band trick.

Roy,
Yes, it was the time when we at our little Hifi Magazine were aware of Peter W. Belt’s experiments. I’ve been in contact with him, I’ve tried every of his products, even have managed at one of our dealers to import some of them. After years of experimenting with PWB’s product I’ve come to the conclusion that they worked but not the way PWB reported. In my opinion, any of PWB’s product works on creating a harmful field around the human body. That time we’ve ceased all the PWB jazz.

Good or bad the effect is, it’s not described by nowadays physics (or physiology), so in my opinion it must be of interest for anybody with open mind. I don’t want to mix experiments’ results with their interpretation but if one human being is able to perceive a metal thing on the other’s hand then this phenomena can easily have a proof of the aura around the human body. And this interpretation can have some meaning for the audio fan who keeps fighting with something unknown.

My trick with the copper band is an unexpensive tool to demonstrate the effect. 75% of any audience was the opinion that the effect did exist, and this number is allways the same for audio fans, amateurs, musicians, readers of our audio mag as well as “policemen on the corner”.

The most interesting of our experiments was when all the 16 members of the Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra (you may happen to know it) tried my 16 copper bands, playing with them on/off on a rehearsal, and writing their notes in my 16 notice books. The 75% figure was reached again.

graphoman

Posted on: 15 August 2003 by graphoman

When defining the 75% figure I mean the ratio of participants who were able to confess for himself that the effect did exist. Here we have to forget an additional 10% (mostly technicians) who are not able to do so. I remember an excellent ingenieur (State Prize winner!) who gave a positive result: he realised the effect of the band. Then having been informed what he was perceived in the blind test, was frigthened to that measure that from then on he wanted to perceive absolutely nothing. Even if the other experiments were of normal HiFi routin: amp against amp, speaker agst speaker etc.

graphoman

Posted on: 16 August 2003 by graphoman

you’re absolutely right as far as we are don’t want to know the reasons behind our deed. Do you know the reason why television sets disturb your music listening?

The copper band is nothing but a tool to realize how funny a world is where we’re living. It’s not for wearing while listening to music, especially not because it’s effect is deleterious. Just like the effect of your watch you’re wearing while listening to music.

graphoman

Posted on: 16 August 2003 by graphoman

telephone sets do NOT vibrate in sympathy with the music. It’s a red herring. You can prove it by burying the telephone with something like a pot. Then acoustic feedback is nil but the harmful effect of the telephone set is still present.

graphoman

Posted on: 16 August 2003 by Greg Beatty

graphoman -

"I don’t want to mix experiments’ results with their interpretation but if one human being is able to perceive a metal thing on the other’s hand then this phenomena can easily have a proof of the aura around the human body."

Have you heard of James Randi? If you can reproduce, under controlled conditions, ANY hard evidence of what would be regarded as paranormal phenomena then you stand to win one million dollars. This challenge has been offered for over 15 years and there have been no winners to date.

One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge

I am familiar with a wide range of so-called paranormal phenomena (pendulums, dowsing, metal bending, EPS, etc.) and perform a debunking show on such topics. I wish you luck with your metal bands.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by graphoman

as a serious (so-called “educational” or even “scientific educational”) journalist I’ve never had the aim to deal with “psy”. I only have to realize there are some phenomena that are by far not mystical, they only have no explanation today.

There is absolutely no way to prove the metal-band trick by scientifically acceptable methods. (I’ve tried it all the way.)It only can be demonstrated.

You’ll forgive me but you seem the kind of chap that are willing to write an essay of 30 full pages about why some things are impossible. And with this lot of works you want not to spend 5 minutes to try it.

Have you heard about a certain Galileo Galilei? He made experiments, flying into the faces of the scholastica? Or have you heard of dr. Volta, with his funny trick of letting dance frog’s legs?

graphoman

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Greg Beatty

???

You have misread me. I would not write pages on why something cannot occur. I believe in cable directionality and do not limit my scope of hi-fi inquiry to basic electronics 101.

However, like Randi, I too have been searching for ANY evidence of paranormal phenomena.

Trouble is those that are predisposed to believe in such things make no or only make poor attempts to check the claim against other, less mystical, explanations for the phenomena.

I do not doubt the phenomena, per se. I have witnessed many out of the ordinary things - my performing character is "The Doer of Odd Deeds" in fact. It is the *explanations* for the phenomena that get out of hand.

I received a booklet with the pendulums I just bought. This author is claiming that pendulums are controlled by God and it is his divine will moves the pendulum. He claims pendulums can locate and cure disease. He offers NO proof for these claims. If the FDA got wind of this joker the would shut him down (health benefits REQUIRE controlled tests before the claim can be stated to sell a product). FWIW, I do not believe his is a con artist. From his writings, I believe that he believes what he has written and published.

Pendulums are an example of the ideomotor phenomenon - plain and simple. EVERY test of them under controlled conditions (just hold the hand steady) has failed.

I've little doubt that the band test might work. Hey, I heard a demo once of the sound of a hi-fi being affected by bringing a pager into the room. Fortunately, those demonstrating this didn't offer a mystical reasons or suggest that it could be used as possible proof for another mystical claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Mick P

Chaps

It is this sort of thread that gives Hifi a bad name. Is anyone seriously suggesting that wearing a non ferrous copper bracelet will affect the sound of music reproduction.

I wear a copper bracelet all the time and removing it has no effect at all. I have even plonked a bloody cast iron frying pan on the amp and that had no effect at all.

Your listening room is more than likely heated by steel radiators, some rooms have RSJ's, there are steel carpet gripper spikes and then some plonker starts fiddling with a little copper bracelet ......for goodness sake, get real.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by graphoman

you see, you write again... but you won’t try it. Though it would be much, much more simple. What I stated is nothing paranormal or anything. Only that more than 75% of ANY audience will percept the effect of the band, irrespectively that he’s wearing it personally or an other person behind him. (Mick Parry is one of the 25%). Thick copper is more effecting that normal wrist-watch band.

But I was wrong when mentioning Volta. Obviously, dr. Galvani was that was called Dance Master of the Frogs.

graphoman

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Mekon

I once took part in an ESP test. The experimenter claimed humans can reliably guess at cards at a better than chance level, and that the sample he'd used showed the same effect. All a bit 'whitey on the moon' for my interests, but there you go.

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Greg Beatty

Graphoman -

I don't need to try it - I don't doubt that the effect exists. I AM NOT writing to state that it doesn't.

However...

"I don’t want to mix experiments’ results with their interpretation but if one human being is able to perceive a metal thing on the other’s hand then this phenomena can easily have a proof of the aura around the human body."

...talking about auras is going beyond what the phenomenon suggests and surely has no place on an audio forum. That's my issue - a paranormal explanation (auras) when a far simpler non-paranormal (er...just normal that is) explantion will do nicely.

Even phenomena that cannot currently be explained by normal means do not warrant a belief in the paranormal - its a rediculous leap that is only made by those who are predisposed against reason about such things.

As a shocker, a recent survey found that over 50% of those surveyed in the UK believe in occult happenings.

At any rate, this discussion - my side of it too - has no place on a audio forum. I apologize if I upset you. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish (of course).

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Steve Toy

The ferrous effect is two-fold:

1) Magnetic fields around the equipment. The theories behind this one I won't go into...

2) The resonance properties of ferrous objects directly coupled to the equipment - this is of greater interest to me.

Ferrous objects ring at critical frequencies that may be detrimental to sound quality and the ability of your system to hold a tune.

RCJs will not have any resonant properies as they are encased in the bricks, mortar and plaster surrounding them.

Steel carpet tacks are dampened by the carpet above them.

Multi-phasing your Mana may also have the effect of cancelling out the resonant properties of the iron frames.

Regards,

Steve.

Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Steve Toy

Ferrous metals ring in a way that other metals - i.e: aluminium don't.

The aluminium ringing noise (as found on Naim olive-series casework) is rather dull and deadens quickly.

When I tap the sides of my Mana Sound Bases the ringing is more high-pitched and takes longer to decay. I only have a little of it under my speakers and on balance the Mana does more good than harm I reckon.

However, lots of ferrous ringing that transfers back into my equipment adds its own style of coloration to the overall sounds and music being played in my room - both directly and via vibrational feedback into my electronics.

The theory is scientifically unsound (scuse pun) but removing its effects does seem to be beneficial on a purely subjective level.

My own stand aims to minimise resonances from both within the electronics and from other outside sources.

I like its musical properties as I've heard them and they work for me.

Cutting holes in my shelves made a big difference (a no-profit retrospective upgrade offered by the manufacturer of my stand in light of this discovery) too in terms of dynamics, depth, detail and overall musical enjoyment. If you don't dispute this particular assertion, you may like to offer your own scientific explanation as to why it improved the sound the way it did.

My own interpretation (and that of the manufacturer) is a reduction in overall mass of my stand as well as that of resonance properties of the shelves - whch are made of MDF and not some ferrous metal material, but then evey material has some resonant property somewhere at some frequency does it not?

Regards,

Steve.

Posted on: 18 August 2003 by Steve Toy

quote:
I suspect the reduction in mass is a red herring - isn't the reference QS different in other ways? (like a wobbly top platform?).

Not really a red herring because "the wobbly top platform" was already there before the holes were cut out. The cut-outs were the only variable and they made a sonic improvement. (I did perform an A/B test by moving a CDX from the stand without holes to an adjacent one with, and in all other aspects the two stands were identical.)

The reduction in mass was significant - noticeable when carrying the shelves flat-packed into the car.

So what was it about the cut-outs that improved the sound, the reduction in mass, the reduction in resonance or a bit of both?

Nice post, btw.

Regards,

Steve.