DAC

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

My problem is that I am gathering the impression that one also needs a HDX to make this thing sing.
For my needs (and I think others) I need to see how the DAC/555PS will do when fronted with a more reasonably priced digital file source/streamer/whatever rather than an expensive $9K box.

Gregg

I wouldn't be fooled with these killer combos, I can't believe the Naim DAC needs an HDX to do its best. This simply makes no sense, there are plenty of good transports out there including ultimate computer based solutions that I bet will better any CDP transport.
The fact that the Naim DAC is more positioned for Hifi transports than for computer audio doesn't mean you can't get the maximum performance using a computer. If my Lynx AES16-Lavry sounds as least as good as my CDX2-555PS (in most areas) I can't think of any reason why an HDX is needed for streaming to the Naim DAC, what could be so special in its digital output?
HDX is a good product on its own, and the DAC could be a good upgrade for HDX users but IMO that's all.

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

My problem is that I am gathering the impression that one also needs a HDX to make this thing sing.
For my needs (and I think others) I need to see how the DAC/555PS will do when fronted with a more reasonably priced digital file source/streamer/whatever rather than an expensive $9K box.

Gregg

I wouldn't be fooled with these killer combos, I can't believe the Naim DAC needs an HDX to do its best. This simply makes no sense, there are plenty of good transports out there including ultimate computer based solutions that I bet will better any CDP transport.
The fact that the Naim DAC is more positioned for Hifi transports than for computer audio doesn't mean you can't get the maximum performance using a computer. If my Lynx AES16-Lavry sounds as least as good as my CDX2-555PS (in most areas) I can't think of any reason why an HDX is needed for streaming to the Naim DAC, what could be so special in its digital output?
HDX is a good product on its own, and the DAC could be a good upgrade for HDX users but IMO that's all.

I was hoping that the dac would work well with simpler/cheaper drive units than the HDX, maybe even a laptop. After all both a lap top and the HDX read from a hard drive, so hopefully the differences should not be too large. If that is the case, it seems like the dac will offer a very good value for money for us in the mid range segment (also looking at Majik DS and Akurate DS), with high quality sound in the 3000-5000 usd range. The possibility to upgrade from there with additional power supply is of course an additional bonus naim folks are used to.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

HDX is a good product on its own, and the DAC could be a good upgrade for HDX users but IMO that's all.

Exactly so.

Correct.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

HDX is a good product on its own, and the DAC could be a good upgrade for HDX users but IMO that's all.

Exactly so.

Correct.

I think the dac is much more than just an upgrade of the HDX. For example in the demo referred to above, even a Linn unidisk 2.1 was used, and people were very pleased with the performance.

So I think a decent transport and a dac could be a reasonable atlernative to for example Linn DS or regular CD players.

How the hell can anyone who hasn't heard the DAC assume from anything that has been said on these forums that it will only be worthwhile as an upgrade to existing Naim equipment? All that has been said is that it improves upon existing Naim equipment and that some people think the Naim front ends are better than other front ends - that's all that ever been said.

Go listen to the damn thing before making logic leaps that defy any....well logic!.

If you have already come to the conclusion that indeed this is the case then stop worrying about it and go buy something else without listening to it - after all there is no point is there because we all know it will only work at it's best with Naim equipment. Nowadays it seems with the advent of the digital world that all front ends sound the same and there is no need to listen to new equipment as you know in advance how it will sound. Amazing! What a timesaver that will be.

Jim

Hmmmm... OK, I think some of us are going off at a bit of a tangent here, so perhaps it's time to take stock and get back on track.

Firstly, to think that the Naim DAC has in some way only been optimised for the HDX is frankly way off the mark. The DAC will make the best of whatever digital signal it gets but ultimately the better the digital data it receives, the better the performance. The HDX just happens to do this very well, thanks to it's optimised ripping engine and careful design of it's drives, PCI architecture, and digital output. Indeed, in theory it should better even the best CD transport. The HDX has shown that when fed by a serious PSU such as an XPS or 555PS, it can put in a performance up there with the very best at any price. In my view it's only the internal DAC that has ever so slightly held the HDX back. It's an excellent DAC but perhaps not quite as good as the ones used in the top Naim CD players. The new Naim DAC though, changes all that - and how!

Of course the unique design of the DAC (rotating memory, DSP etc..) and the attention to detail in isolating various parts, will mean it should be much less sensitive to varying quality of digital outputs than other DACs, but according to the R&D guys (see white paper) there will always be an element of noise that will be demodulated by the DAC so quietest digital output should still be best. So, it will still depend, to a certain extent, on the quality of the source, whether that be HDX, squeezebox, computer, DVD player, CD player, CD transport etc... But even this is speculation to some extent as I haven't yet personally got to play with a unit. I can't wait to try it out!

So, lets all hold off on the more wild speculation and wait until the DAC is out there in the shops. Then we can all hear what it can do...

Richard, if it is the case that, as you say, "there will always be an element of noise that will be demodulated by the DAC", is it then the case that the least noisy input must be the memory stick, since there is no S/PDIF to demodulate?

Probably but there is still a controller as part of the device. I've found that different drives can sound slightly different and it's probably at least partially due to this but perhaps that difference isn't noise related and all will sound the same and excellent when dejittered. We'll have to try and see and there isn't an inherent problem with S/Pdif if quiet with this topology so again, a stick and an HDX with the same file may sound the same.Please don't be put off that a particular source may not be the best. I've always heard large differences in source with the DACs I prefer in the past. All I've read has indicated the it will be smaller without compromising the best source. As long as it's better than what's there now with the same source, it will be considered a success and there's no way to know until you try it with what is there in your setup now.

quote:

Originally posted by naken janne:

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

HDX is a good product on its own, and the DAC could be a good upgrade for HDX users but IMO that's all.

Exactly so.

Correct.

I think the dac is much more than just an upgrade of the HDX. For example in the demo referred to above, even a Linn unidisk 2.1 was used, and people were very pleased with the performance.

So I think a decent transport and a dac could be a reasonable atlernative to for example Linn DS or regular CD players.

I believe that's what Goldfinch meant as in 'the DAC isn't just an upgrade for an HDX' though it can be read to say otherwise.

It doesn't surprise me that the HDX works well with the DAC. Naim have addressed noise in digital devices as an issue since day one. It's no coincidence that the HDX dig out will be quiet and therefore very good for the job. It's their first dig out and the DAC was in development when the HDX was introduced. This is not coincidence but in no way means it's the magic combo, just that they got it right. There's no magic code or interface here but this output is more than a feature and was carefully addressed at inception. Other sources may be as good and some perhaps even better. Many not. What's important is that the best ones aren't held back to accommodate the poorer ones and that they're closer than usual for a high performing product. If so and it's better than what came before it with your source, it will be a success whether it can be bettered with an HDX etc or not and there's only one way to find out.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Richard, if it is the case that, as you say, "there will always be an element of noise that will be demodulated by the DAC", is it then the case that the least noisy input must be the memory stick, since there is no S/PDIF to demodulate?

You may be right there, but let's not forget the memory stick is on a USB, which probably opens up another can of worms... but as I'm not a digital engineer, I can't answer that, because I just don't know. Hopefully one of the R&D engineers will pick up this thread at some point (as if they aren't busy enough right now!) and be able to provide some input here.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
The HDX has shown that when fed by a serious PSU such as an XPS or 555PS, it can put in a performance up there with the very best at any price

So can one infer that to get EVEN better performance one should use two power supplies - one on the HDX and one on the DAC?

Gregg

PS I hope not as that really puts the price in the stratosphere

No. It would be a moot point.

That's correct as the outboard ps is strictly for the DAC and analog sections. You can use an HDX dig out without even the jumper plug in the burndy socket so the supply is definitely not effecting performance there.

Quick bit of DAC feedback from me

I went to the Northampton show last weekend and as a HDX / 555PS owner was obviously curious as to what the DAC could do.

I only heard one track playing on the new CDX2 bare then with the DAC and then with the 555PS on the DAC ... As to be expected there were clear improvements at each stage but what really blew me away was the uplift provided by the bare DAC. In a totally unscientific homage to Martin Colloms I'd rate the uplift provided by the DAC at 32 points, the 555ps adding a further 16 points ... In other words the DAC seems to deliver big time especially given the relatively modest outlay involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
Isn't speculation a wonderful thing. Almost as good as listening.

Jim

is not this what the hell a forum is for?

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

IMH(umble)O, people need to ignore the fervour being drummed up by these dealers who are no doubt hoping there will be a rush of HDX/DAC/555PS orders to fill their books

Allen

Your entire comment very well put except for the above quoted line - I am not so sure there will be a "rush" for $21K digital playback

Gregg

I think Richard has stated clearly that the DAC has not been engineered as an HDX complement. IMO that was already pretty obvious but I certainly agree with those who think that the way it is currently being demonstrated can lead some people to think the contrary. Maybe it is just natural to show the DAC with the HDX just because it is a Naim streamer with a quality digital output, but if I were a dealer I will try to demonstrate it too with a well-properly setup computer, many potential customers might be interested!... they could demo it with at least an "ordinary" sound device such as the recommended M-audio Transit, probably much better than the just using the MAC's Toslink.

For those of us who has chosen the computer audio route I think it is frustrating to check that there is no way to find out how good this DAC can perform using a computer as a streamer. Ok, we could order one, but it would be great to have some feedback before, specially now that it finally arrived at dealers show rooms!

I will be auditioning the new DAC but it will be in my home and it will be with my Mac as source, and it will be directly compared to my Weiss.

Patrick

quote:

is not this what the hell a forum is for?

Not when it is as totally illogical as some of the comments on here IMO - but the speculators are free to "fill their boots" and stand by preconcieved notions of what the outcome will be and how the DAC is only an add-on to existing Naim kit. Me? I'll go and listen to it, listen to alternatives and either buy it or not. Pretty simple approach that has stood the test of time.

Cheers

Jim

PS. Your comments in this thread have been pretty balanced and are among the rare ocassions when I agree with you, so I hope you didn't take it personally!

Allen B, thoughtful post, may I ask did you hear the new dac before you placed your order, and if it is no better than the Lavry?

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
I will be auditioning the new DAC but it will be in my home and it will be with my Mac as source, and it will be directly compared to my Weiss.

That is an interesting comparison but contrary to the Weiss and its friendly firewire computer connection, the Naim DAC needs a "suitable" link for making a fair contest.

As James N described earlier, the Weiss dig out should serve well and much like a TC. It will be interesting to see how big the tos difference is as well. Much fun to be had.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by naken janne:

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

HDX is a good product on its own, and the DAC could be a good upgrade for HDX users but IMO that's all.

Exactly so.

Correct.

I think the dac is much more than just an upgrade of the HDX. For example in the demo referred to above, even a Linn unidisk 2.1 was used, and people were very pleased with the performance.

So I think a decent transport and a dac could be a reasonable atlernative to for example Linn DS or regular CD players.

This thread started with a few overseas (to the (Naim) home base of the UK) dealers who have received their demo units giving their initial opinions. It seems the HDX / 555PS, maybe unsurprisingly, was the best of the 'front ends' tried with the DAC.

It remains to be seen how each and every individual hears the differences the DAC makes, but most importantly, what each individual hopes to run the DAC with in their preferred 'front end'. The way I read Goldfinch's comment and agreed so firmly with is that the DAC may well prove to be a worthwhile upgrade to the HDX, but not everyone wants to own a HDX, for many and various reasons that have been discussed and argued about ad nauseum since it's release.

I trust that Naim have done something special in the engineering of this DAC, the white paper makes intriguing reading. Potentially it could be the breakthrough many of us have been hoping for. I am sure it will perform admirably with most sources, as Richard has said in his post, not just the HDX. For me, I am waiting for my DAC already ordered, I'm expecting it to better the Lavry I have been using, but I'll not be buying a HDX. I will wait to see what Naim does for alternative front ends for the DAC. Meanwhile, I'll (hopefully) enjoy the output I will get with the Mac (maybe Konnekt 8) hooked up to the DAC and examine the developments.

IMH(umble)O, people need to ignore the fervour being drummed up by these dealers who are no doubt hoping there will be a rush of HDX/DAC/555PS orders to fill their books. If you demo the HDX and feel it's the right route for storing distributed audio, that's fine.

But it's definately not the only solution.

As stated, all should be taken with a grain of salt and auditioned by oneself. Let me correct one minor point. HDX would not use a 555ps or XPS2 when used with the DAC. Superfluous.

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:


PS. Your comments in this thread have been pretty balanced and are among the rare ocassions when I agree with you, so I hope you didn't take it personally!

Not at all Exiled! I have pretty thick skin! Cheers my friend!

And yes, my eventual Naim DAC will be used with my PC and M-Audio Transit. CANT WAIT!!!!!!!!!

If the PC/Transit/DAC is anywhere close to a bare HDX, I will pee myself.

-patrick

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
I will be auditioning the new DAC but it will be in my home and it will be with my Mac as source, and it will be directly compared to my Weiss.

That is an interesting comparison but contrary to the Weiss and its friendly firewire computer connection, the Naim DAC needs a "suitable" link for making a fair contest.

Goldfinch Hi,
It is just a dac, I will connect it, it will either be better or worse than the Weiss, perhaps I can use the Weiss as a firwire interface to make it 'fairer'!