New Equipment & Meaningful Comparisons

John--

Good point. I think the reason people are doing the comparison is that they are comparing the previous flagship to the new flagship to see if the emperor has any clothes.

Here is a comparison I'd be interested in: an 82 v. 202. Or, for that matter, 202/new Hicap/new 250 compared to 282/new Hicap/200. My hope is that the new gear represents a step up the old ladder--so that a 202 approximates an 82; etc. Some context for the new range would help, though I understand the gear is trickling out and needs time to warm up and break in.

And thanks to folks like Manu and JN and others who have posted their impressions about comparisons--please keep them coming.

Best,

Bob

I'm doing my best to make comparaisons of old vs new. But it is time consuming to do it well (one calm day per setup), and to write a report.
The other problem is the availability of old units. I will not buy a 102, just to test. Most old models are already sold out in Canada. I must rely on used equipment to do the tests.
I still have 250, 82, 52, hi, NAPSC, SC of the old style.
So, what I can do is:
250 (old) vs 200
combinaisons of SC1,SC2,82,282
52/sc1 vs 282/sc2
Hicaps on 82,202
NAPSCs on headline
New Hicap on CD5 , 32.5...


What i'ld like to do is:
135 vs new 250,
active old vs passive new,
New Hicap on 72,
102/180 vs 202/150, on easy speakers, i feel it can be better.

My feeling, for now is: a new model is very close to the previous upper model. One exception can be 202/82, the 202 is much better than 102, but the gap between 102 and 82 was so huge, the 202 does not seem to fill it. But it needs to be tried.

A lot of listening sessions...
And if you have special requests, i can try to fill them.

And, John, I completly agree with you. What is really interesting is to compare a new combo with an old one more expensive.
An other point is to evaluate the impact of new units within an old system.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

[This message was edited by Manu on FRIDAY 13 December 2002 at 06:02.]

Emmanuel, you must be a very patient person to do all of those comparisons. I am now sitting with a XX2/Naimed LP12/Prefix/52/Supercap/135's/SBLs and am interested what my best options are for say $5-10K Cdn net of trades.

Vinyl is my only source so maybe a new SC2 on my 52 and my existing SC on the prefix?

My guess is there might be a matching issues with old and new. If I went for a 252 I would probably need a 300 to achieve significant sonic gains but the numbers are over the top. So how does a 252/250(new) compare to a 52/135s? I imagine there are gains and losses.

My other option is SL2s but I think a supercaped prefix will bring more music but might start revealing source issues?

I'm looking for musical gains like going from an 82/Supercap to a 52. This was a significant step musically IMO.

I will be looking for your posts and hope to hear some of the new equipment soon.

John

John, as i said, the problem is to be able to have the old units.
Yesterday, 52 and sc have gone and 135s came in, bad synchro, sorry, the test will be for an other time.
I will be able to compare 135 vs new 250.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Manu:

Did you get a chance to compare the new 250 to the 135s? I'm very interested in this comparison.

John

JPO
but the size difference is huge too. Regardless of cost this is not comparing like with like. When dealing with speakers comparisons should be made taking size into account as well as cost. My room simply won't accomodate SL2s.

malcolm

The reason I posted this thread was because of all the promotional comments regarding the new equipment. If it really is better than the old equipment there should be combos like a 252/250(new) that should beat say a 52/135 combo. The other question is assuming it's better does it warrant paying the price for these benefits. If it does than it becomes a viable upgrade option and should be considered along with say replacing my SBLs with SL2s. I suspect the SL2s are much better than my SBLs but would expect the same from DBLs.

People are comparing equipment like the 552 vs 52 and the SL2s vs SBLs and stating/implying it's an old vs new comparison. These are upgrades that line up with previous upgrades like 82 to 52 or SBLs to DBLs. It mixes old vs new with jumping up to another level in equipment. It should sound better

Manu, any luck with comparing the new 250 to the 135s?

John

A friend of mine have changed his 52 for a 252 and it really improved everything. Not huge but enough to make it hard to go back.

/Erik

John,
A 250 vs 135 match will be played on Friday. The opponents are already in the ring. The system will be CDX2, 252, 82/hi, various speakers (SL2, ALLAE, ELITE, Royds...).
What i can say is the new 250 has impressed every one who has listen to it at my place.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Quote:

"This is like comparing a Lexus 400 to a Toyota Camry."

I have a MR-2, I consider it as a Nait 1 among Toyota cars!

I think the 52/135 - 552/500 and SBL - SL2 comparasions are valid. If one is a Naimoholic and thinking of upgrading and having the money to throw on it, it is.

JohanR

quote:

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Originally posted by John:
Why are people on this forum comparing 552/500 systems to 52/135's?

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John,

I think it is really worthwhile to hear a reference quality system to hear how much music is possible and how big the improvements are. I thought the 552/500 was a great step forward over the 52/135. I have not heard the 252, etc, if it is anything like the 552 I am sure it will be worthwhile, but I will just wait the twenty years until the 552/500 becomes more affordable for me

Dev

quote:

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Originally posted by John:
The reason I posted this thread was because of all the promotional comments regarding the new equipment.
John

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John,

That is a bit cynical! I think you might find that most posters are just enthusiastic! I think if you get the chance it might be better to listen to the 552/500 to come back and report your findings.

regards,

Dev

Dev:

Sorry for appearing cynical. This is not my objective. I'm just looking for meaningful comparisons. Should I consider the new line as an upgrade option? The dealer close to me doesn't stock enough of the product to make any reasonable comparison. They want to sell me the SL2s but don't want to take the time for a home demo. I am suppose to make a decision on SL2s with an 82/Hicap when I have a 52? How am I suppose to know if the new equipment is an upgrade option when I don't have the opportunity to compare it? Thats where forum input comes in. I have been following a lot of the threads trying to gain some knowledge as to what the new equipment is about. Naim and the dealers are in promotional mode now, this is their business and it makes sense. This promotional enthusiasm is making it's way through members on this forum. Do you believe the bare CDX2 is better than the CDS2? Do you believe a 282 is better than a 52? It's possible, but I believe a degree of cynicism is justified!

I read your write up on the 552/500 and liked how you articulated the musical differences. This is what I would like to read along with how much of the benefits are retained with say a 252/250(new). If the new equipment is clearly better a 252/250(new) should better a 52/135. My dealer tells me the difference between the 52 and 252 is similar from an 82 to 52. The 82 to 52 are degrees of improvement I like but again a degree of cynicism is in order.

I hope I have a chance to listen to a 552/500 system. It's fun to explore if you have the time and interest. Over the years I managed to scrape my way up to a Naimed LP12/Prefix/52/135/SBL system. I probably only have one more shot at improving my system. The 252/250(new) is an economic possibility for me but is it better than my 52/135? Or just different? Other possibilities: 300, SL2s or a supercap for my prefix. I'm just trying to find my way through the hype because I don't have the opportunity to listen and compare for myself.

John

Manu, have you compared the new 250 to the 135s?

BTW, do you work for Dimex?

John

John,
I Don't work at Dimexs. As my profile has always stated, I'm the pride owner of a HIFI store in Montreal. Some say a Naim store as i just carry an other brand of electronics and 3 other brands of speakers (NEAT and ROYD included) and accessories often associated with Naim (QS, The Chord Co, Dynavector,...). I'm working to add video equipments (DVD, front projector...)
I have chosen to concentrate on few brands, but only ones i personally like (i should say love) and to have all models of each brands (electronics and speakers) on the floor. Only exceptions are, today, Neat Ultimatum range and Naim 500,552,DBL. It has been hard on the finances when the new range came in.
I have also a good choice of SH units (Naim only).

I also do a lot of service on Naim equipments (this time yes, also for Dimexs), but be reassure, i do a lot more recaps than repairs.

This is why i can do comparisons, i have access to all Naims, old and new. And these comparisons are not done at first for the forum members (sorry guys) but for my customers. How could i seriousely advise my customers if i have not done it.


My first 250 vs 135s match ends "even".
250: more body, longer releases, more subtility on voices.
135: faster on attacks, but also faster to fade releases away.
Same level of involvement but with different strengths. At this level, it is a matter of personal taste.
Test was performed with CD3.5/hi, CDS/CDPS, 82/hi, and Credo, Pat Metheney and Patrick Noland.
I will do a more extensive test later with CDX2/252/SL2.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

John, again, on your answer to Dev.
It is your right to be cynical.
But, do you believe you can really take a good decision based on the forum opinion? You can have hints, it can make you save time, but it won't replace a good demo.
For the money involved in the upgrade you are planning, take your car and go to a larger dealer or ask him to arrange a demo at one of his customer's place or whatever. I'm quite cynical too, but he has to work for the sale. You have to listen by yourself. Otherwise, Naim could sell on-line.

IMO, a 252/250 is better than a 52/135 but don't take my word, we don't have the same musical priorities, our emotions are not triggered by the same things. Of course, i can tell you to go for a 552/500/DBL, this is obvious, everyone will agree on a purely musical pleasure basis. But that's not all, money is a factor, room is a factor...

When a customer come to me asking for an upgrade advice, i give him all the options and then i let his ears (/mind/wallet etc) decide. Of course sometime it is obvious, but even there, i want him to listen for himself. I'm here to guide him, to explain the possible paths, to avoid the traps not to impose the destination.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Harry,

Yes it is. It is a veiled reference to the usual:
"These opinions are my own, and do not reflect those of the organisation i work for".

As my previous post explains, i'm the owner of a HIFI store, so i can speak for the organisation i work for (not for Naim nor for Dimexs).

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

[This message was edited by Manu on MONDAY 23 December 2002 at 06:52.]

Manu:

Thanks for the info. If you do the comparison with a better preamp and speaker please post the info. Based on your write up I wouldn't be interested in the 250 as I wouldn't want to lose any aspect of what I currently have with my 135s.

I like how you approach sales and wish other dealers approached the issue in a similar way. I wish I could just jump in my car to find a larger dealer. The closest to me is in Seattle and then you have duty issues when it comes into Canada. I will try to e-mail you through your profile over the holidays. I would like to know what used equipment you have. Maybe we can make a deal!

BTW, I only look at the forum as information. There seems to be more BS than objective information. Over time I have found people I trust and have made purchases based on other people opinion who are ahead of me in experience.

Thanks
John

Elvis,

Hmmmmmmmmm

First correction: It was the Naim forum that turned me on to Naim not my dealer. My dealer had me purchasing YBA equipment and B&W speakers!

Second correction: I have purchased the following new from my dealer: B&W804s, YBA Integre amp, B&W802s, YBA CD player (forget name), YBA CD2, Transparent Ultra speaker cables, Transparent Reference interconnect, Naim CDX/XPS, Naim NAC 52. How many $$$ does that add upto?

Isn't it bizarre that purchasing used equipment gets under their skin! So much so that it stresses the relationship. Think of it, it's a business relationship which serves the economics of their shop. How can it possibly be in their interest to stress it? Look at how much money I have dropped at their store. I am just another consumer who can take his business elsewhere. Makes them look pretty stupid huh! Used Naim equipment is just another equipment line that they choose not to carry. Other dealers do!

Regarding the 250 vs 135s, I'm not even interested anymore. I will look at the NAP300 for guaranteed benefits instead when funds permit. Where will I purchase it?............. From a dealer who appreciates the business I bring him rather than focusing on the business I take elsewhere.

Lighten up! or grow up!

quote:

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Originally posted by Fozzy:
This thread is giving me food for thought!

I currently have CDX/XPS/102/Hi/180/Allaes and am struggling to know what my next upgrade should be. The 102 is probably the weakest link, but is a 2nd hand 52 better value than a new 252(aestheics apart!)?

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I've got the same setup, except with SBL's, and was probably leaning more towards a CDS2 than a 52. As I don't own a TT I thought this may be the better move, but if anyone has any thoughts as to the best move they would be gratefully received.

thanks

Graham

I'm intrigued that little has been said about the 300. didn't it replace teh 135? of course I have yet to hear the really great Naim gear but I love what I have.

Sistem hierarchy or source first?

The former. The 102 is already bottlenecking the sistem, imho. Get a 52 or a 252/Supercap. Then a CDS2 will make sense.



Regards,

Steve.