A New approach to King Crimson
Posted by: Peter Stockwell on 23 February 2002
any recommendations for more recent KC stuff ?
Peter
As regards recent stuff I only have Thrak,which is good,but somewhat bitty,and like a lot of their stuff,not exactly easy listening.
If you like Beat,then Discipline and Three of a Perfect Pair may be up your street as they are from the same period.
I recently acquired Starless and Bible Black which is probably closest to Red (1974), along with Lizard (HDCD re-issue - originally '70) and Discipline ('81?).
Discipline is more modern sounding, featuring the talents of Tony Levin, Adrian Belew and Bill Bruford accompanying Fripp.
I have to be in the right mood though, I wouldn't call them easy!
Andy.
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew L. Weekes:
I'm also a big fan of Red, an album I still love, despite a slightly dated sound..I recently acquired Starless and Bible Black which is probably closest to Red (1974), along with Lizard (HDCD re-issue - originally '70) and Discipline ('81?).
Discipline is more modern sounding, featuring the talents of Tony Levin, Adrian Belew and Bill Bruford accompanying Fripp.
I have to be in the right mood though, I wouldn't call them easy!
Andy.
How do the HDCD reissues sound v LPs, I just got Lark's on phrench polidor. I found side two more coherant and quite liked it.
Peter
What is the origin of the title Starless and Bible Black?
I do love KC but have never understood the lyrics.
Steve B
quote:
Originally posted by Steve B:
I do love KC but have never understood the lyrics.
The original lyricist was Pete Sinfield, who tended towards rather spacey/Tolkienesque stuff at times. Later lyrics c/o Richard Palmer Jones, then I think John Wetton, and finally Adrian Belew. All rather different, and Ade's are often clever and fun, but not really obscure (though "The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum" gets free association points!).
Pete.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stockwell:
OTOH, I have Beat, and like that.
As well as the other 2 80s albums that others have suggested (Discipline, 3 Of a Perfect Pair), check out Absent Lovers, a live set from the last date the 80s quartet played. Satori in Tangier and Waiting Man are on that in IMHO much better versions than the original studio release.
quote:
I played Larks tongue in Aspic yesterday, but it seemd too suble and didn't grab me, should I have played it louder ?
Absent Lovers will also let you play an absolute monster version of LTiA II, which benefits from going up to 11, possibly higher...
quote:
any recommendations for more recent KC stuff ?
If you like Improv based stuff, the ProjeKcts box is very good, but if you prefer more song oriented stuff then there aren't any songs on it, so avoid! Some of it's pretty odd for "prog-rock pond scum" to be coming out with, with quite a bit of drum 'n' bass influence on discs 3 and 4. There's also, inevitably with live group improvisation, some filler moments, but where it takes off it's flying very high indeed.
The ConstruKction of Light brings back the interlocking guitars of the 80s quartet to some extent and is probably a good place to go from Beat. It's more focused than THRAK, and a bit more Beat-esque, though THRAK works better for me. Of the more recent live sets, Heavy ConstruKction comes from the current Fripp/Belew/Gunn/Mastelotto lineup, and is very good with a bonus 3rd CD of Improvs, while VROOOM VROOOM comes from the 90s Double Trio, with concerts from Broadway (very, very, very heavy) and Mexico City (even heavier than that!). VV Mexico City is the sort of thing that might be banned for causing structural damage...
Pete.
I am a masive KC fan, and the mid 80's Krim, confused the hell out of me first, then like lots of stuff, the penny dropped.I think it'a the recording that's a bit wierd?? Not earthy enough..
I think Thrak is very good place to rediscover Krim, a bit more accesible, and quite melodic.
The contrast in volume, from quiet to loud is a traditional Krim thing really, and you need to see them live to 'get' the big sound to silence thing..it really is impressive.
Also the new KC 'Construction of Light' stuff is Ok, but again the songs are really good, but sounds to electronic and not earthy enough, I have never been a fan of electronic drum pads..... ( no Bruford/Levin either :-) )
Cheers
Goose
Peter
quote:
Originally posted by Goose:
The contrast in volume, from quiet to loud is a traditional Krim thing really, and you need to see them live to 'get' the big sound to silence thing..it really is impressive.
I've sadly never seen them live, but still enjoy the incredible dynamics of their stuff a lot. The silence is practically deafening at time, especially on "Deception of the Thrush".
quote:
Also the new KC 'Construction of Light' stuff is Ok, but again the songs are really good, but sounds to electronic and not earthy enough, I have never been a fan of electronic drum pads..... ( no Bruford/Levin either :-) )
Well worth checking out is Bruford Levin Upper Extremities, or BLUE for short. There's a studio release and a supporting live double, and both really cook. They feature Chris Botti on trumpet and David Torn on guitar/very strange loops. I think most Crim fans would love both discs.
Pete.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stockwell:
This band was cult when the first album came out, and I had it. Nowardays, I can't bear to listen to 21st century schizoid man. OTOH, I have Beat, and like that. I played Larks tongue in Aspic yesterday, but it seemd too suble and didn't grab me, should I have played it louder ?any recommendations for more recent KC stuff ?
Peter
I would start with their mini-album VROOM - it's the most approachable and melodic of their 90's releases. I also think that it has much better versions of the songs that also appear on Thrak (i.e.: "One Time" and "VROOM").
Personally, they've started to lose the plot after that. Thrak is OK (though "Dinosaur" is a stonker) and ConstruKction of Light is a big disappointment.
Best bet - continue with "Beat" and pick up Discipline and 3 of a Perfect Pair. Discipline is the tightest of the three, while Perfect Pair is the most improvisational.
Have fun and let me know how you get on. KC isn't for everyone, and like Pink Floyd, their sound has changed radically over the years.
Cheers
Keith.
Cheers
John
quote:
Originally posted by John Boon:
Origin of "Starless and Bible Black"From memory this is a quote from "Under Milk Wood" ?
Cheers
John
Correct. Give that man a lollypop!
quote:
Originally posted by Keith Mattox:
I would start with their mini-album VROOM - it's the most approachable and melodic of their 90's releases.
The title track is a cracker, but Sex, Sleep... isn't excatly big on melodic hooks, nor is Cage, if you can find any approachable melodies in THRAK at all you deserve a medal, When I Say Stop is an Improv, again not exactly crammed with melodic hooks, but the final track (there are only 6) is indeed melodic and approachable. That's not a very good strike rate!
If you want melodic and approachable, I'd look into other places than Crimson!
quote:
I also think that it has much better versions of the songs that also appear on Thrak (i.e.: "One Time" and "VROOM").
One Time is beautiful on both, and though VROOOM is debatably better on the mini-album you don't get VROOOM VROOOM to close it all down. I think THRAK is the better purchase, just for the extra content and variety. Plus it has B'Boom, one of the coolest tracks Crim have ever put down.
quote:
ConstrKction of Light is a big disappointment.
There seemed to be a lot of disappointment with it on release, but people appear to have come around to it quite a bit since then, judging from the Elephant Talk Crim internet newsletter. Worth the purchase price just for the closing track Heaven and Earth IMHO, although I like the rest too. Larks Tongues IV must be one of the heaviest tracks on any rock album ever. "Melodic and approachable" it isn't, but it is rather good if you feel like having your speakers paste you against the opposite wall in small pieces.
quote:
Best bet - continue with "Beat" and pick up Discipline and Three of a Perfect Pair. Discipline is the tightest of the three, while Perfect Pair is the most improvisational.
Discipline belongs in any record collection with a prog content. Make sure you get the 30th anniversary remasters: Discipline has an alternative version of Matte Kudasai on it while 3ofPP has a whole load of extra mixes and Improvs ("The Other Side" listed on the back of the box). The 30th remasters were initially available in miniature gatefold sleeves which were nice: if you can find those that's good, but since reverting to jewel boxes the content is the same.
For any crimheads out there I thoroughly recommend Sid Smith's "In the Court of King Crimson", which has been meticulously researched with lots of interviews of Crims past and present. Good book, from Helter Skelter.
Pete.
quote:
Originally posted by fred simon:
King Crimson trivia:What is the origin of the title _Starless and Bible Black_?
Surely it's taken from Under Milk Wood - Dylan Thomas...?
'Epitaph' from ITCOTCK really floats my boat.Thought you should know....
Peter
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Williams:
Quote: "Originally posted by fred simon:
King Crimson trivia:What is the origin of the title _Starless and Bible Black_?"
Surely it's taken from Under Milk Wood - Dylan Thomas...?
Yes, but John Boon beat you to it. I've already shipped the lollypop to him, packed in dry ice.
A year has gone by, almost, and what a difference a year makes ... and CD player. I didn't buy Thrak. I didn't listen to Discipline much, but i'm going to get stuck into, when I have the chance. Evelyne hates KC and in general that 'proggy stuff' from the 70s. Mind you I've just bought Starless and Bible Black and the USA album that comes from the tour that immediately folowed the release of S&BB. I love USA it's great bone crunching turn it up loud music.
So Thrak next or what ?
Peter
quote:Here's a vote for "Vroom". Its versions of the songs that it shares with "Thrak" are much better. If it also had 'Dinosaur' I'd say skip "Thrak" altogether.
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
If you don't want a lot of Thrak try Vroom the shorter version (EP?)
Tom
Cheers
Keith (looking forward to hearing "The Power To Believe")
If your looking at albums from the Thrak era give B'Boom a try. It's a double live CD, called an "official bootleg". I think it's taken from the mixing desk, sound quality is OK, and it's a great live album.
Or alternatively from a bit earlier Absent Lovers (listening to this at the mo). Another live one.
I think that live Krim generally gives a far better feel for the band than the studio stuff.
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Jenkins:
Peter,
If your looking at albums from the Thrak era give B'Boom a try. It's a double live CD, called an "official bootleg". I think it's taken from the mixing desk, sound quality is OK, and it's a great live album.
Or alternatively from a bit earlier Absent Lovers (listening to this at the mo). Another live one.
I think that live Krim generally gives a far better feel for the band than the studio stuff.
Simon
That's my feeling comparing S&BB with USA, that are broadly contemporary. Mind you one is an EU pressing (S&BB) and it doesn't sound like an HDCD like the US pressed USA does. I was really enjoying Fracture, from that a little while ago. Now it's Cristina Branco that's playing, E's choosing, but that's OK I like th elyrical tearjerking stuff too.
Peter
I can't even remember what was on USA, it's so long ago that I heard it. USA and Earthbound are the only KC albums that I don't have on CD (excluding the DGM collectors club stuff). I bought them both on Vinyl about 10 years ago. Unfortunatly when we moved I left a few hundred LP's back in the UK, including USA and Earthbound, still haven't got around to having these shipped over yet. DOH!!!
I do seem to remember that USA was very good. I managed to find a review for Earthbound a few years ago that said something along the lines that it sounded like it had been recorded with the microphone inside the roadies pants, and that the roadie was sitting in a bar a mile down the round. Fairly apt. Still I have the Great Deceiver and Epitaph set's which is just about enough live material from that period.
Was listening to Vroom Vroom again this morning, another live KC worth checking out.
I find KC studio albums like Miles Davis studio albums, technically excellent, but missing a lot of the heart and soul, they just give you an idea of what the band is about but don't paint the whole picture. Would rather listen to both live.
Does anybody know if KC are touring after the new record ? I still haven't been able to see them live.
Simon
quote:I agree - they've been smart to release a lot of live material (check out their "Collector's Club" stuff; the Berkeley 1982 release was a popular bootleg!). They are a powerful band live.
Originally posted by Simon Jenkins:
Would rather listen to both live.
quote:They are - though no dates have been set for Europe - check their website.
Does anybody know if KC are touring after the new record ? I still haven't been able to see them live.
Simon
Cheers
Keith.
But in any case, THRAK's a fine album and IMHO worth your while. Also the VROOOM VROOOM double live, recorded by the "double trio" lineup of THRAK may be worth considering. As well as various bits from THRAK itself the 80s period is well represented, and when the boys are flying they manage the feat of being lightfooted and astoundingly heavy all at once. Good stuff!
Pete.
quote:
Originally posted by Pete:
Quote: "
Best bet - continue with "Beat" and pick up Discipline and Three of a Perfect Pair. Discipline is the tightest of the three, while Perfect Pair is the most improvisational.
"
....it while 3ofPP has a whole load of extra mixes and Improvs ("The Other Side" listed on the back of the box). The 30th remasters were initially available in miniature gatefold sleeves which were nice: if you can find those that's good, but since reverting to jewel boxes the content is the same.
Pete.
I bought Three of a Perfect Pair, on french vinyl, this weekend and I was, well, underwhelmed. Didn't seem right for a Crimson album. How's this one generally sound on LP ?
Peter