Help me - I don't get it

I don't "get" the music of Benjamin Britten, and have been hunting for an entry point since about 1982! In that case I reckon it os better to push at an open door! There has been plenty of music by old JS Bach which I did nor "get" at first aquaintance, but there is none noe which I have not at least partly understood, which I have found so far. I think that some music is not meant to be fully understood even in a lifetime. There is always somethoimng more to find in it, and that is the fascination of truly the great music, as it is a lifetime's attempt to understand it better!

This Thread is going to be fascinating!

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Anderson:
Ben Folds - I just don't get it.

Interesting concept. I'll try and help, but knowing you Jeff you'll have been pretty thorough already! And I'm not an expert on him either.

I find Ben Folds a bit hit-and-miss myself. Sometimes he can come over as overly witty with some songs that are fairly throw-away, but each album I have (Whatever And Ever Amen, Reinhold Messner, Rockin' The Suburbs) usually has enough to keep me going through the so-so bits...except Whatever And Ever, which is pretty much topo stuff throughout.

I suppose what I'm saying is that, if I hadn't heard Whatever first I probably wouldn;t have bothered to even try the others.

Not sure if that helped...

I think I've posted on this subject before and I'm not sure that he's particularly popular on this forum, but I have real difficulty understanding the appeal of Bruce Springsteen's music.

Mark

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Shaw:
Interesting concept. I'll try and help, but knowing you Jeff you'll have been pretty thorough already! And I'm not an expert on him[QUOTE]



This is the only album I have (and can't at the moment find where I put it). Right now I am listening to BF's opening set for John Mayer a week ago in Hershey PA. Often times I can "get" an artist from the live shows and then try to understand their motives in the studio, they are totally seperate environments and often times hard to bridge well.

Sounds like vaudeville/show tunes done mediocore with four letter words thrown in for ?, coolness I suppose. Sounds like a bad Harry Connick Jr (with angst) and I am not a fan of his either. Kind of a female Fionna Apple, but she does it so very much better, for me at least. I think I am missing it completely.

Chillkram, I can't differ with you much on Sprinsteen though from time to time I catch something that seems decent - parts of Nebraska and Tom Joad (obviously those are his singer/songwriter side) and a stunningly good moment of him doing a James Taylor song (Millworker) solo with acoustic guitar and harmonica on the 2006 Musicares tribute to JT disc. BS's Sessions/Seeger did nothing for me but I suppose it rides the Brother Where Art Thou coattails well.

Jeff A

This is slightly sideways but I don't get the derision that Dire Straits and Phill Collins gets from some members of the Audiophile/music lovers community. Money For Nothing is a fantastic track and so is In The Air Tonight. Is this just classic pretentious twaddle (Mick Parry(c)).


Great thread by the way I'll try a think of someone I don't get, might take a while.



Dean...

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
This is slightly sideways but I don't get the derision that Dire Straits and Phill Collins gets from some members of the Audiophile/music lovers community. Money For Nothing is a fantastic track and so is In The Air Tonight. Is this just classic pretentious twaddle (Mick Parry(c)).

I'm with you on Dire Straits Dean, but Phil Collins...I can't be doing with that!

Which brings me on to....Genesis - I don't get them either, especially post Peter Gabriel.

I can't even begin to understand the mind that finds listening to Punk, (c)rap, hip hop and heavy metal pleasurable. I find it tedious,ugly and offensive at best and downright torture at worst.

I don't find myself listening to those genres specifically, but find many groups I like who have incorporated those stylings into their specific hybrids.

For me, Spoon, Death Cab, and John Vanderslice certainly reflect the influences of punk, while John Mayer incorporates subtleties from the other three frequently (I recommend to anyone hearing JM cover a Marin Gaye song with DJ Logic on his As/Is live recording from 04-05). Massive Attack and Dave Matthews reflect the rhythms and beats of hip hop and rap and jazz. Just to name a few that immdediately come to mind.

If those bands (and many others not) mentioned are not of your liking, that won't mean much. But for me, one of the exciting things about contemporary music is the "borrowing and adapting and reinventing" that keeps it fresh.

Jeff A

ps: Acad, I don't recall you posting in the music room - tell me, also, what music you like.

Hi Jeff,

I don't post much in the music room as I have much to learn and prefer to read more erudite submissions from others but I do occasionally post. The thing is I know intellectually that the merits or otherwise of any music does not exist from its own side, that is to say and quality or lack of quality does not exist from the side of the music or we would all experience it in the same way - but we don't do we? Some of us love something and some of hate it right? Our musical tastes say nothing about the music and everything about ourselves as individuals. However, no matter how much I know that to be the case I still can't quite get my head around why someone would like the Sex Pistols for example - I wonder what goes through their head when they listen to it and how it makes them feel - does it move them profoundly?

I like classical music and opera most and a smattering of fairly middle of the road rock plus a few bits and pieces of wilder stuff. All very vanilla really and probably a tad boring - Vivaldi lute music or a bit of Bach harpsichord suits me fine or a Mozart symphony or even some Philip Glass but anything involving screaming and ranting and mindless repetitive beat frazzles my nerves - I don't know why exactly except to say its a resonance thing - it just doesn't resonate with the way my consciousness is configured. weird innit?

I have a friend who gets nauseous listening to some classical music - its a sort of audio vertigo - take away the driving and screaming guitars he usually listens to and the repetitive thumping drum and base and he can't understand why the music flows as it does seemingly to him without structure and constraining beat or rhyme or reason - he just doesn't understand why it flows to where it flows - he can't predict it. I've seen the colour drain from his face listening to Smetana. We are exactly opposite when it comes to music and yet we are close friends and have other things in common. Thumping predictable base is a kind of Chinese water torture to me and pure bliss for him.

Reggae?

nah! I get it but I don't like it.

Munch Old cheese, I believe I made the same point in my post. Anyway, perhaps you could explain the Sex Pistols to me. What mood do you have to be in to listen and enjoy and what do you feel when you listen to them? What goes through your mind when you listen? I am genuinely curious as I do find this sort of thing interesting . I was listening to Cecilia Bartoli earlier singing an aria called 'Amarilli' by Caccini and my first thought after only a couple of notes is 'Bloody hell that is so beautiful'. What is the first thing you say to yourself hearing the Sex Pistols? In general I like my music 'beautiful' and if I want something a bit exciting I listen to Santana or even some Pink Floyd but both are recognisably music and not just noise - you may think I am trolling here but the bottom line is I can't hear any music in the sex pistols.

I saw them on that infamous tv interview and I thought they were Orcs!

I think it would be interesting to see a before and after brain scan as it may well be that listening to the Sex Pistols produces the same brain wave state that Cecilia Bartoli produces in me and that would be very interesting I think.

Bitches Brew I bought this recording on vinyl almost 40 years ago when it was first released and recently purchased the reissue on CD and I still can not see what is so great about it. I find it tedious and monotonous where I really appreciated the creativity of In A Silent Way, which was released just before it and the Cellar Door Recordings, that were recently released. They are both more coherrent and represent Miles' intention much better,IMHO.

Anthony

Surely music is like food? Can you say exactly why you like for instance marmite or a curry? My kids eat pizza but put a piece of cheese in front of them and "I don't like cheese".

I don't get The Smiths or at least Morrissey sounds like they should have been an instrumental band to me. His whining out tune and time ramblings make me switch off.
Is it like punk,something to do with the era and who the music was aimed at? I don't know The Pistols do nothing for me,an untalented noise to my ears, yet I love the Stranglers form the same era. Is it my reaction to the way SP were presented MaClaren and his big con?

Acad I find the flow of the music comes from the sometimes simple rhythms and beats. I feel this is why a lot of jazz and classical music is so difficult to access because it "jumps about " a lot, and has no obvious route.That's not to say there aren't pieces like that that I enjoy.
Weird innit?

Long may the differences continue,long may the music continue.

Howard

[QUOTE] The thing is I know intellectually that the merits or otherwise of any music does not exist from its own side, that is to say and quality or lack of quality does not exist from the side of the music or we would all experience it in the same way - but we don't do we?[QUOTE]

Spot on. Recommendations/comparisons always must be filtered through our own perceptions, even when received from members with whom we share a passion for one or several artists.

I have zero musical talent, so I certainly don't hear or critique music from a technical perspective. Often for me it is branches of trees and I am fascinated on the journeys that ensue, sometimes exposing me to things I might never have anticipated liking.

Also, it is the history of the music, though that might cover just a very recent time span vis a vis the hundreds of years history of classical. A Natalie Merchant unplugged live album/Austin City Limits appearance led me on a jouney through the background and style of the guitar player/harmony singer, Gabriel Gordon. Ultimately I didn't find much passion for his music, but it was a worthwhile journey and he is still, for me, equal to Natalie, in making that album work. Often times at concerts, my focus ends up being on a support member, rather than the featured performer.

And, like Biggie, I often find "it" comes from the rhythms and beats and "flow". "jumps about" is a good description of what I hear in Ben Folds. Sex Pistols don't flow for me, but Alice In Chains does.

I am often shocked by how quickly my tastes divert from tastes of someone with whom I share a deep passion for a particular artist. But, because of that "one" shared passion, I will always listen to and seek their advice and try what they recommend. It continues this love I have for music and sound, which, ultimately, has become one of the very few passions I can continue to indulge.

Good listenin'

Jeff A

quote:

Which brings me on to....Genesis - I don't get them either, especially post Peter Gabriel.

Interesting Mark - I have exactly the opposite viewpoint!

Peter

Bjork. Pretentious gibberish to my untutored ear.

Immediate post Gabriel Genesis were pretty good I thought. The tour which yielded "Seconds Out" was really great. They were a a band again, not a backing group. For me, it all started to fall apart after Steve Hackett left to form his own clothes company.

I'm wondering whether people are verging on wanting to use a thread like this to just list their dislikes or whether there is a genuine interest in being persuaded?

So, Springsteen? No easy way in nowadays as there's too much misleading baggage e.g. talk of Born In The USA being jingoistic when it's anything but. What you really need is a recommend of a small, inexpensive cross section. FWIW I would suggest:

Devils And Dust - a mixed bag of a record but probably the most representative of where he's at nowadays.

The River - a great big sprawl of a record but as doubles go there's probably only a couple of duds (Ramrod being the most obvious) and there are moments of such great beauty and pathos that if you don't click with them then you really ought not to buy any more e.g. Stolen Car, The River, Point Blank.

If neither of these click with you then don't go any further. If they do then work your way gently until you finally hit the big commercial stuff. Only then will it make sense. Avoid Tunnel Of Love (not for starters, some great underdeveloped stuff and some utter duds) and the two non-E Street albums from the 80s - some songs of longevity (If I Should Fall Behind being only the most obvious) but mostly a man cast adrift in a land of his own making.

I am deliberately steering away from explaining or justifying Springsteen as I believe that to be a dead end. If certain of the records don't explain it then IMHO nothing will.

I'll leave Bjork for a few days time.

Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Hughes:
I'm wondering whether people are verging on wanting to use a thread like this to just list their dislikes or whether there is a genuine interest in being persuaded?[QUOTE]

I, for one am genuinely interested in drawing on others perspectives on music that hasn't floated my boat. Thank you for the suggestions of Devils and Dust and The River - I have access to a wonderful library system that allows me to research these things and then buy into them when I have found something that works for me.
(and do catch the Millworker performance if at all possible - it is a spellbinding few minutes, even for a non-fan-at-the-time like me.)

[Quote]I am deliberately steering away from explaining or justifying Springsteen as I believe that to be a dead end.[QUOTE]

I would be fascinated to hear your perspectives if and when time/interest allow.

Note: An example of what I would like this thread to be is a more universal example of the Gomez thread. I dabbled a bit in their music 5 years or so ago, but didn't catch the bug. At the urgings of Ryan D and JWM, I revisited them and am finding much to like. Initially the vocal sound was not attractive to me but I have found with continued listening that I actually quite like it - especially the uniquness within the three individuals. Tom - the purest vocalist, Ian - the most emotive and effective, and Ben - different, but hard to ignore and therfore eventually acknowledge as terrific in his own way.

There are fine lines between venting dislikes
and seeking knowledge and on the other hand, between validating/informing and cheerleading.

But if it leads any of us to try - or retry - something and finding, for whatever reason, there is meat on the bones this time (be it ear, intellectual or social) then it will be fun I hope.

Jeff A

So far we seem to have been long on 'don't gets' and short on 'better starting points', so in an effort to redress the balance.


Fredrik,

As far as Britten goes, if you're not already familiar with the Simple Symphony or the Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, they might be good places to start listening. However, probably the most accessible piece is the four sea interludes from Peter Grimes - there's a fine recording from Donald Runnicles and the San Francisco Symphony (and I'm sure many others besides).

Another entry point might be his early stab at opera Paul Bunyan (though it's as much a musical or operetta as it is an opera). More lyrical than he often is and with a wonderful libretto from WH Auden. What more could you ask for. Make sure you go for the Brunelle recording on EMI rather than Hickox. Not only is the former significantly cheaper, but Hickox with the ROH sounds a bit too prim and proper.


smiglass,

Bitches Brew, and much of Miles' work from that period took me a while to get into (though not In a Silent Way, which I struggle to imagine anyone strongly disliking). However, it makes sense to me as, like much of what he was doing at the time, it's very, very angry. However, I think Jack Johnson (from around the same time), captures the feeling much better.


regards, Tam

quote:

Bjork. Pretentious gibberish to my untutored ear.

Oh.. but I loved her 'Oh so Quiet'.

I thought the Sugar Cubes was pretty good, too. Nothing pretentious about those.
Most of their tubes were so silly made me smile.

Dear Tam,

Yep, I know and love the Simple Symphony, and even played in it once. Much harder than you would think. Also the Young Persons Guide, which is great fun, but I get a bit stuck after that.

I sort of enjoy the Four Sea Interludes. I played them as well and they really are hard to play! Not the notes but keeping ensemble!!

Thanks from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
Bjork. Pretentious gibberish to my untutored ear.

Which bits have you tried Chris?

I'll grant you that sometimes she can appear to be trying too hard to be "out there", though I believe she's genuinely talented. Of course, if the voice grates on you, that's a bit of a problem ;-)

If I were going to try and persuade someone to get Bjork then I'd prescribe a dose of Vespertine. There are no catchy tunes as such - the whole album creates a unique atmosphere that, if it gets you just drags you along with it.

It's not an easy-listening portal to liking all things Bjork but in terms of creating it's own world in a way no-one has done before, I'd put it up close to Nico's Marble Index or Joanna Newsom's YS, but like those it probably doesn't grip you first time through (that's assuming you get all the way through first time...).

Dear Fredrik,

It's interesting - I never really think about how tricky those pieces might be to play. How about the sinfonietta (of which I attended a rather nice performance about a month or so ago).

regards, Tam

Well, I like Bitches Brew ! Maybe this thread is a little awkward, if we don't "get" an artists work, maybe we are less than qualified to judge it !


At any rate, I will say that I don't "get" Alban Berg's great operas Lulu and Wozzeck. They are undoubtedly extraordinary, so no doubt I am the problem. I do get and love the Second Viennese School, Schoenberg (especially the chamber music) and of course that Great irascible miniaturist Webern.


Regards