Which vinyl al*** do you use to show off with

Manhattan Transfer Mecca for Moderns

An assortment of Earth, Wind and Fire and Tower of Power.

Dr. John's City Lights.

No orchestral or other classical music, as CDs are always superior for this.

quote:

No orchestral or other classical music, as CDs are always superior for this.

Totally agree with this.

ATB from George

A plentitude, some of them:
- Ben Webster - At the Renaissance
- Harry Belafonte Returns to Carnegie Hall
- Tower of Power - Direct
- Buena Vista Social Club
- Paul Simon, a best of from the 1980's with songs like 'Loves me like a rock' and '50 ways to leave your lover'
- Eric Burdon and War - Love Is All Around, the live medley 'Black On Black In Black/Paint It Black/Laurel And Hardy/Black Bird'

CD can sound very good to, but never that good.

JohanR

Wicked Game by Chris Isaak is quite a good one to use.

Regards

Nic

The Beat, Just can't stop it
Paul Simon, One Trick Pony

Picture Book by Simply Red

This shows most modern "production values" to be the utter pony that they are.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

quote:

No orchestral or other classical music, as CDs are always superior for this.

Totally agree with this.

ATB from George

No, dear George and Mike, I can`t agree.

Of course, many older vinyl discs of classical music are not very good and most CDs sound better. But some recordings of the late fifties and sixties, especially from RCA ( Living Stereo ) or Decca ( SXL ) are extremly good and I like to use them as demo recordings to show how good vinyl can be.

Best wishes

Manfred

I ask them to pick something they are familiar with from the racks!

quote:

Originally posted by Manni:
some recordings of the late fifties and sixties, especially from RCA ( Living Stereo ) or Decca ( SXL ) are extremly good and I like to use them as demo recordings to show how good vinyl can be.

Best wishes

Manfred

I can't speak to the Decca, but the RCA Living Stereo is very much a manufactured sound, falling apart in any orchestral tuttis and becoming very harsh and opaque.

newer recordings on CD are never like that.

I dont have a TT but when I want to bring a piece to show off on others' TTs, I bring MCA-Canada The Who - Who's Missing mastered for vinyl by Steve Hoffman.

Or My white vinyl German DMM of The White Album.

Or my pristine copy of Zappa's - In New York. This album was EQ'd expertly.

-patrick

I rarely feel the need to show-off or to convince others.

Nor do I necessarily agree that vinyl is better - whatever better means.

Dear Manni,

The trouble for me is that between RCA and Decca in the late fifties there is only one artist recording for them that I have enough interest in his musicianship to own a recording or several of, and that is Cliffiord Curzon!

Mostly the recordings are spectacular in a way that is able to tire one out within minutes and which is entirely unsuitable for a long listen as demanded by say the Saint Matthew Passion, so I own a mere three Decca recordings [and no RCAs at all] from this so called "Golden Period."

I find 78s to be more musically faithful, and the well managed CD transfers of the 78 to be the best so far in musical quality in many cases.

LPs are generally rubbish in my experience, and analogue tape is inherently worse than a direct cut disc or digital recording.

There was a terrible period for recording between 1950 and 1979 where analogue ruled. Some worth while music making but not one single recording worth writing home about.

ATB from George

Ladysmith Black Mambazo - Journey of Dreams
Thomas Dolby - Flat Earth
Grand Master Flash - White Lines 12"

For a simple miked analogue tour de force this album.





For a superbly produced studio album.




For a modern album.





Dean....

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Manni:
some recordings of the late fifties and sixties, especially from RCA ( Living Stereo ) or Decca ( SXL ) are extremly good and I like to use them as demo recordings to show how good vinyl can be.

Best wishes

Manfred

I can't speak to the Decca, but the RCA Living Stereo is very much a manufactured sound, falling apart in any orchestral tuttis and becoming very harsh and opaque.

newer recordings on CD are never like that.

Dear Mike,

many DG recordings of the 60s and 70s sound thin and harsh, but most Living Stereo LPs do not.

For example please listen to:

Moussorgsky/Ravel: Pictures at an Exhibition, Reiner/CSO
Offenbach: Gaite Parisienne, Fiedler/Boston Pops
Saint-Saens, Symphony No.3, Munch/Boston Symphony

If these or numerous other Living Stereo LPs sound bad, there must be something wrong with your system.

Best wishes

Manfred

P.S.: Here is a common agreement, that there are many excellent LPs with popular music. But no good classical recordings? Seems illogical to me. And why are there so many "Golden Era" reissues on the market?

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Manni,

The trouble for me is that between RCA and Decca in the late fifties there is only one artist recording for them that I have enough interest in his musicianship to own a recording or several of, and that is Cliffiord Curzon!

Mostly the recordings are spectacular in a way that is able to tire one out within minutes and which is entirely unsuitable for a long listen as demanded by say the Saint Matthew Passion, so I own a mere three Decca recordings [and no RCAs at all] from this so called "Golden Period."

I find 78s to be more musically faithful, and the well managed CD transfers of the 78 to be the best so far in musical quality in many cases.

LPs are generally rubbish in my experience, and analogue tape is inherently worse than a direct cut disc or digital recording.

There was a terrible period for recording between 1950 and 1979 where analogue ruled. Some worth while music making but not one single recording worth writing home about.

ATB from George

Dear George,

sorry, but I cannot agree with you on that as there are so many great recordings made during the vinyl era.

What about Rossini`s String Sonatas performed by N. Marriner and the Adademy of St. Martin in the Fields?
Don´t you like Sibelius` 2nd Symphony with Maazel and the VPO?
What is your opinion about Münchinger and the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra ( many Bach recordings)?
And finally: only a short time ago your recommendation was: Haydn Symphonies by Klemperer and the New Philharmonia Orchestra, produced 1960 by EMI during the vinyl era. I agree with you, this is an excellent recording like so many more of that time.

Best wishes

Manfred

Probably side 1 of this:

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Manni,

The trouble for me is that between RCA and Decca in the late fifties there is only one artist recording for them that I have enough interest in his musicianship to own a recording or several of, and that is Cliffiord Curzon!

Mostly the recordings are spectacular in a way that is able to tire one out within minutes and which is entirely unsuitable for a long listen as demanded by say the Saint Matthew Passion, so I own a mere three Decca recordings [and no RCAs at all] from this so called "Golden Period."

I find 78s to be more musically faithful, and the well managed CD transfers of the 78 to be the best so far in musical quality in many cases.

LPs are generally rubbish in my experience, and analogue tape is inherently worse than a direct cut disc or digital recording.

There was a terrible period for recording between 1950 and 1979 where analogue ruled. Some worth while music making but not one single recording worth writing home about.

ATB from George

That's a statement and a half George. Really not even one?

Best

Andy

Just in regard to George's statement and a half.

I much prefer vinyl to cd and pc. Night and day to me, just more enjoyable, I enjoy the music more. The sleeves are also nicer, they smell better and are more fun...this is equally as important to me than hifi stuff. Even if I though LPs sounded marginally worse, I'd take them in preference over some ethereal stuff stored on a souless computer...that will simply never cut my mustard.

BUT, I can see where George is coming from. George (and no offence here George) is a genre fan. Classical is George's thing, I'd expect it constitutes much or all of his listening. Now, I have a few hundred classical LPs, which is not extensive I admit, but should include a few nice recordings. I can't think of one that sounds enjoyable or inspiring...I've some classical cd's that make the hairs on my neck stand on end*. Is this a classical only issue? I've got lots of jazz lp's that sound stunning.

*I must point out that my neck isn't overly hairy, just a fine layer of aryan down.

quote:

Originally posted by Manni:

Dear George,

sorry, but I cannot agree with you on that as there are so many great recordings made during the vinyl era.

What about Rossini`s String Sonatas performed by N. Marriner and the Adademy of St. Martin in the Fields?
Don´t you like Sibelius` 2nd Symphony with Maazel and the VPO?
What is your opinion about Münchinger and the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra ( many Bach recordings)?
And finally: only a short time ago your recommendation was: Haydn Symphonies by Klemperer and the New Philharmonia Orchestra, produced 1960 by EMI during the vinyl era. I agree with you, this is an excellent recording like so many more of that time.

Best wishes, Manfred

Dear Manni,

I have heard a selection from the Rossini Sonata recording under Marriner. Nice music making in competent enough recordings. Nothing that I would get excited about in terms of the recordings. I actually react against Maazel's Sibelius performances, but that is personal.

On Munchinger, his Bach recordings were in some cases how I came to Bach particularly the LP of the Second and Third Suites, which I discovered as an eleven year old. Even at the time I asked the music master how a record could be so un-natural in the presentation of the line played by the double bass and cello, which seem several times louder than real cello/bass lines sound in real concerts. Clearly this was a particular fault with this specific recording as many other recordings in the school library from EMI. Philips, Vox and so on did not suffer from this gross error. Interestingly the older Deccas such as Erich Kleiber's VPO recording of Beethoven Eroica from the earlier mono LP era was actually very naturally balanced, so Decca clearly lost the plot with the arrival of stereo and the fixation with Hifi sound, rather than good natural music replay.

In terms of the CD re-issues [of Munchinger's Bach recordings] fortunately the balance has been re-adjusted to be more natural, and I do have the Art Of Fugue from Munchinger, which makes a nice counterpart from the musical stand-point to Helmut Walcha's recording playing a very fine Organ. I do have one recording from Munchinger which is of the Harp and Flute Concereto of Mozart played by the VPO. This is a rare example of a completely satisfactory recording from Decxca during the so called "Golden Period" in my view.

On the Klemperer recordings, these are better than the Deccas from the time in my view in that they do two things better, clarity of the inner voices [especially the woodwinds in the orchestral tutti] and the whole effect is less of a manufacturered and over produced sound. It is inherently less distracting from the music. The point is that EMI, thouygh by no means a company who made consistently competent recordings, often did actually make competent recordings for all that. Sometimes they fell into the trap that Decca and RCA both fell into more often than not of over-engineering the recordings.

In modern times with much better recording machines than analogue tape recorders, it is possible to go back to the simple microphone techniques used in the time of direct cut 78 recordings.

The result is that the recordings get a more natural balance of musical lines, and a more natural sense of the musicians playing as an ensemble rather than so many musicians playing in highly separated individual acoustics!

The whole comment about records that layer and separate the sounds as the Deccas and RCA recording do is entirely worng and unmusical. It is deeply irritating to listen to music and feel that there is a lot of acoustic space between the players, when the reality is that players sit as close together as is possible so as to reduce the sense of looseness or space between them. Good ensemble results from sitting close together because ensemble is based on listening to the other players, and so bigger distances always reduces the quality of ensemble.

The other significant defects that LPs suffer from are:- that analogue tape is noptoriously prone to faulty pitch presentation, and it invariably adds an extra dose of tape hiss for each generation from the master tape on to each extra coppy generation made.

LPs themselves suffer from faulty replay pitch both as the cutting stage and the replay stage. They also suffer from sides that can accomodate rather short duration of music, so that for longer pieces of music you may be forceed to turn over or change the record sevral times during the course of the music.

So can the LP produce enjoyable results? Of course it can, but it is not very accurate and certainly not in any way [at least for classical] ever preferable to digitsl replay, in my experience.

I have found that the digital re-release of great music making captured in the analogue tape days is invariable nowadays finer than the original LP releases. Certainly the restoration enginers have found that the additional quality of the CD over the LP has allowed for the original recordings to be presented without often cramping the orginal dynamics or musical flow of the music. Therefore nowadays the restoration process is frequently one that allows the recordings of a past time to sound far better than they ever have in their original issues.

This is something which Anthony Griffith and Keith Hardwick have written about at length in articles on restorations of recordings for CD re-issue. These two were in thurn the cheif restoration engineers at EMI.

To read what they said about the arrival of tape recording is indeed food for thought, for though analogue has the reputation for being musical among audiophiles, it reputation among engineers was not a complimentary one.

Analopgue tape was a compromise in a way that is far more musically damaging than high quality digital recording. Analogue can be rescued for satisfactory issue in digital format, and oftern the result are a revelation in the increased musical quality revealed.

Sadly if the original recording is too poor, then the CD re-issue is apt to sound worse, due to the inherently greater clarity and revealing nature of high quality digital recording, remastering, and replay.

ATB from George

Tango in the night - Fleetwood Mac

Black Velvet - Alannah Myles

Everything's Different Now - Til Tuesday (esp. the track, 'J for Jules')

Harvest - Neil Young

Both great recordings, and clean pressings.

And then anything else would be mood dependent.

Dear George,

two remarks about Decca recordings.

Many years ago, the German magzine Image Hifi published an article about Mr. Kenneth E. Wilkinson, Decca`s famous Recording Engineer, to honour his merits in recording quality.

During the early years of High Fidelity, the stuff at Hifi-Stereophonie ( another magazine ) used Rossini`s String Sonatas performed by Marriner for loudspeaker tests.

It is funny, that you are living in the land of milk and honey - Decca LPs are abundant, but you don`t like them at all. In my country, the original SXL Deccas are rare and the widespread blue-labeled German pressings are inferior to the originals, so I have to look for the expensive reissues.

Of course, listening to music is in the first place a matter of taste. So I will continue to like my Deccas and you will prefer newer digital recordings, that is ok.

Btw very old mono recordings of the pre-vinyl era are not my cup of tea. Distortions, absence of high and low frequencies, a small dynamic range and much hiss make this music nearly unlistenable for me.

Best wishes

Manfred

quote:

Originally posted by Manni:
Btw very old mono recordings of the pre-vinyl era are not my cup of tea. Distortions, absence of high and low frequencies, a small dynamic range and much hiss make this music nearly unlistenable for me.

Best wishes

Manfred

I couldn't let this pass without comment.

I have the same problem with old recordings, but George has reminded me that I can use my musical imagination to fill in those gaps.

I now find a nagging question occupies my musical thinking. Why should I ignore great performances, because the recording engineer or his equipment aren't up to snuff?

Recording technology will continue to improve over time, but that is a separate issue from making music. Making music proceeds apace, without regard for the advances and declines in recording technology.

You have to take as given, and make of it what you can.