The Threat of Extremisms
Posted by: scipio2 on 16 January 2007
The disclosure that fanatical muslim clerics are still being allowed to preach murder and mayhem in UK mosques (C4 15th January) is most disturbing.
Despite the example of Abu Hamsa, who was allowed to incite the London suicide bombers from the Finsbury Park mosque before being jailed, it appears that Blair's government has taken no action to arrest and deport similar extremists before they can do even more damage to our society.
The specific example shown in the C4 TV programme featured an black American convert to Islam spewing hatred against 'kuffars' (all those who do not share his belief in the teachings of Mohammed) in the main mosque in Birmingham.
Why was he even all allowed to enter Britain, let alone incite weak-minded muslim youths to murderous activities against the country which has given them shelter?
Let's be very sensible if we're responding to this. I suspect that there is a conversation to be had on this subject - I just doubt it will be conducted by reasonable members.
Adam Meredith
Despite the example of Abu Hamsa, who was allowed to incite the London suicide bombers from the Finsbury Park mosque before being jailed, it appears that Blair's government has taken no action to arrest and deport similar extremists before they can do even more damage to our society.
The specific example shown in the C4 TV programme featured an black American convert to Islam spewing hatred against 'kuffars' (all those who do not share his belief in the teachings of Mohammed) in the main mosque in Birmingham.
Why was he even all allowed to enter Britain, let alone incite weak-minded muslim youths to murderous activities against the country which has given them shelter?
Let's be very sensible if we're responding to this. I suspect that there is a conversation to be had on this subject - I just doubt it will be conducted by reasonable members.
Adam Meredith
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by acad tsunami
I am a passionate supporter of the right for free speech but I draw the line at anyone of any faith or political persuasion being allowed to preach racial or religious hatred that is calculated to incite violence and therefore I believe anyone found guilty of doing this should be locked up or deported depending on nationality. No exceptions.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Rasher
Britain is almost unique in promoting a multi-racial society and wanting the country to be a melting pot. Whilst this is an ideal that many of us want, it can lead to abuse by some who do not share our sense of fairness and respect. But we cannot treat these people any differently as it wouldn’t be true to our principles, but we can and must draw the line at promotion of hated and violence.
My own personal opinion is that I’m disappointed that these issues are not addressed within the particular ethnic community in question before they appear as a national problem, which escalates and causes the sort of crap we are facing today. If teachings of hatred were countered by a positive community spirit at the outset, then no-one would listen and the extremists would be alone without support.
I think it’s time that the general British public took the initiative to embrace all ethnic communities to a greater degree in order to kick-start us all looking after one another, and weeding out the extremists (on all sides) into the open. That way we’ll know who’s who – from BNP members to Muslim terrorists and everything in between.
Someone has to start it though, so it might as well be us. You can't solve anything from a negative viewpoint.
My own personal opinion is that I’m disappointed that these issues are not addressed within the particular ethnic community in question before they appear as a national problem, which escalates and causes the sort of crap we are facing today. If teachings of hatred were countered by a positive community spirit at the outset, then no-one would listen and the extremists would be alone without support.
I think it’s time that the general British public took the initiative to embrace all ethnic communities to a greater degree in order to kick-start us all looking after one another, and weeding out the extremists (on all sides) into the open. That way we’ll know who’s who – from BNP members to Muslim terrorists and everything in between.
Someone has to start it though, so it might as well be us. You can't solve anything from a negative viewpoint.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Chris Kelly
Maybe we should just have a "Religious bigotry is the cause of most world evils" thread. Acad, two (or more) wrongs do not make a right. It is intolerable to me to have rabid clerics (of any faith or denomination) coming into my country to try to incite young people into acts of violence against their fellow-citizens. People should be free to believe in whatever they choose but not free to impose their value set on others through violence. And yes, I do include the US/UK outrages in the Middle East in the same light.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Rasher
quote:Originally posted by Chris Kelly:It is intolerable to me to have rabid clerics (of any faith or denomination) coming into my country to try to incite young people into acts of violence against their fellow-citizens. People should be free to believe in whatever they choose but not free to impose their value set on others through violence.
You need to separate "into MY counrty" from the rest of the statement. When they become British, it's their country too. The violence part applies to anyone.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Rasher
The US has a hideous foreign policy that does no longer have the overall support of the US public. I don't think politics is as easy and straightforward as you would have us believe, but it's true that these are bad times, but then show me a time when ANY country had it completely right (in your opinion). Armchair politics is a game overplayed here on this forum, but there seems to little else going on.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Beano
Forum's got itself confused as my post has ended up in the wrong thread.
Beano
Beano
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Rasher
Do you think we haven't discussed the war enough? This isn't helpful. This is negative. The greater public in the UK and now the USA do not support further military action.
We know this.
We know this.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
Acad, two (or more) wrongs do not make a right.
Chris,
Please show me where I have EVER indicated that I believe two (or more) wrongs make a right? My point in starting 2 threads to counter scipio's is to show that the 'muslim problem' (for want of a better term)can not be separated from the 'US/UK imperialism problem' and from the 'Zionism problem' - it is counter-productive to discuss the former whilst ignoring the latter.
I do think the muslim world has some genuine grievances and ignoring this fact as Bush and Blair do so well only makes things worse. In accepting the muslim world has grievances I do NOT for a second agree with the way that some extremist muslims go about addressing the issue. I never have done and I never will.
Otherwise I agree entirely with your post (accept that part which Rasher has already commented upon).
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
Britain is almost unique in promoting a multi-racial society and wanting the country to be a melting pot.
Toronto is the most ethnically diverse city in the world and they don't have any of these problems - one might ask why?
I think the melting pot thing is great - I think that the best model for the Islamic world lies in a mixture of western and eastern values and in the assimilation of the values of mainstream European Islam. However there are people who dont want this to happen and these people are extremists on both side of the fence and the extremists on one side of the fence are FAR more powerful than those on the other! Some perspective it needed here.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by acad tsunami
Thank you Adam for changing the title of this thread. People who want to bang on about Islamic extremism without reference to US/UK/Zionist extremism are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Picking them up on this point (as I like to do)shows an understanding of the causes of the so called 'muslim problem' it does NOT show my religious or political beliefs or empathy or support for violence of any kind including the barbaric, warped and delusional so called Islamic variety* - I understand some of the frustrations that give rise to the violence (in the same way as I understand that if a man goes up to another man and punches him on the nose he should expect to be punched back and should not whinge about it when he does but I in no way condone the retaliation - understanding and condoning are different imo) but I will never agree to endorse it in any shape or form.
*most of what passes in the western media as 'Islamic extremism' is in fact politically motivated just as most supposedly Islamic suicide bombings are political and not religious (as always my comments are based on evidence not emotion)
*most of what passes in the western media as 'Islamic extremism' is in fact politically motivated just as most supposedly Islamic suicide bombings are political and not religious (as always my comments are based on evidence not emotion)
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Rasher
quote:Originally posted by acad tsunami:
Toronto is the most ethnically diverse city in the world and they don't have any of these problems - one might ask why?
I'd be interested to know why. In the UK we have a geographical problem too which the Canadians don't have - not much space.
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Roy T
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
Britain is almost unique in promoting a multi-racial society and wanting the country to be a melting pot. Whilst this is an ideal that many of us want, it can lead to abuse by some who do not share our sense of fairness and respect. But we cannot treat these people any differently as it wouldn’t be true to our principles, but we can and must draw the line at promotion of hated and violence.
My own personal opinion is that I’m disappointed that these issues are not addressed within the particular ethnic community in question before they appear as a national problem, which escalates and causes the sort of crap we are facing today. If teachings of hatred were countered by a positive community spirit at the outset, then no-one would listen and the extremists would be alone without support.
I think it’s time that the general British public took the initiative to embrace all ethnic communities to a greater degree in order to kick-start us all looking after one another, and weeding out the extremists (on all sides) into the open. That way we’ll know who’s who – from BNP members to Muslim terrorists and everything in between.
Someone has to start it though, so it might as well be us. You can't solve anything from a negative viewpoint.
Good post, good ideas.
quote:Whilst this is an ideal that many of us want, it can lead to abuse by some who do not share our sense of fairness and respect.
Some I think feel that this respect and fairness only flows in one direction and in some cases this may be true; it is this perceived lack of respect true or not that may well be the cause of friction between peoples, something has to be done by all if this friction is not to burst into flame.
A few links covering the mixing of races and religions within London may I think once and for all display something that many of us living in the City have known for a long, long time and that is that London is to borrow a phrase from the 60s and that London is truly a Rainbow City.
Links from the London: A world in one city series published by the Guardian 2005.
part one
part two
part three
London by religion- Graphic
London by religion- Analysis
map of London's ethnic minority communities
London by ethnicity- Analysis
London: A world in one city
Posted on: 16 January 2007 by Chris Kelly
Rasher
Many of the rabid clerics are not citizens of MY country. They enter with the specific intent of stirring up MY fellow citizens. That they are allowed to enter is both astonsihing and ridiculous.
Many of the rabid clerics are not citizens of MY country. They enter with the specific intent of stirring up MY fellow citizens. That they are allowed to enter is both astonsihing and ridiculous.
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:the 'US/UK imperialism problem' and from the 'Zionism problem' ...
I do think the muslim world has some genuine grievances....
Now I know what the UK is; I know what the USA is; and if by "Zionism" you mean Israel, then I know what that is too. They are all nation states with elected governments etc.
But what is the "muslim world"? Where is it, what is it, who is it, and why should the whole of it be exercised by what is happening in a very small part of it if not for religious dogma?
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Roy T
quote:Various Sunni Islamist movements have gained momentum in recent years with the ultimate aim of establishing some form of Caliphate; however, they differ in their methodology and approach. Some, such as the Justice and Development Party in Turkey, are locally-oriented, mainstream political parties that have no apparent transnational objectives.
This extract comes from a larger Caliph wikipedia entry so should the non Muslim world be worried about the reestablishment of a global caliphate as suggested by some?
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Bob McC
Ah Wikipedia, very reliable and authoritative!
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Roy T
But open to peer review with contributions, amendments and corrections to links and postings open to all.
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Rasher
There is something we can all do. We can take these voiced arguments and imagine that we are in Germany in the 1930's, and substitute the word Muslim for Jew. Suddenly everything becomes much clearer.
It's crept up on us again and we must take a deep breath and remember history. It's true that we are under attack from a small minority, but we have to rise above it. It makes it more important to be close to our Muslim community and make a stand together. There is no other way, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
It's crept up on us again and we must take a deep breath and remember history. It's true that we are under attack from a small minority, but we have to rise above it. It makes it more important to be close to our Muslim community and make a stand together. There is no other way, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
There is something we can all do. We can take these voiced arguments and imagine that we are in Germany in the 1930's, and substitute the word Muslim for Jew. Suddenly everything becomes much clearer.
Well we can do that, of course, or we could substitute American, British, Spanish, Catholic, Protestant, non-muslim....
quote:It makes it more important to be close to our Muslim community and make a stand together.
Or; it makes it more important for our Muslim community to be closer to the country they live in and to make a stand together.
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Chris Kelly
I don't recall reading anywhere that the Jews in Germany, or even a small radical faction of them, were intent on wreaking havoc on the population amongst whom they lived. Hitler used them as a scapegoat to blame for all Germany's economic and political shortcomings, which was totally absurd but struck a chord in the general German psyche. I don't think there is any correlation between that situation and contemporary events, nor do I believe that we shall allow ourselves to drift apathetically into a genocidal bloodbath. There are of course huge perils to be faced, but the irony is that by overeacting we would play into the hands of the troublemakers.
There is no solution unfortunately. It seems that reason cannot extinguish blind faith.
There is no solution unfortunately. It seems that reason cannot extinguish blind faith.
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Fulcrum
Between friends & work associates I would say I have a reasonably diverse ethnic mix and the great thing about that is being able to engage everyone with equal regard. What's endearing is that people are more alike than they sometimes care to admit; we've all got close friends, aquaintences & those you wouldn't piss on if they were on fire -all based on sound judgement regarding those people's conduct. What isn't so great is when belief systems get in the way -there are two people I know who are great company, upbeat characters with humour & wit. I always thought these guys would get on like a house on fire except for the fact that they both practise directly opposing religions.
It makes me sad that people can't relate more on a humanitarian level. As has been pointed out by the good posters on this forum this is not a Muslim problem. I've been more unnerved by the narrow-mindedness of some Christians than of the Muslims I know.
It makes me sad that people can't relate more on a humanitarian level. As has been pointed out by the good posters on this forum this is not a Muslim problem. I've been more unnerved by the narrow-mindedness of some Christians than of the Muslims I know.
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by u5227470736789439
It seems to me that when a man's [or woman's, though it never seems to be a woman's, does it?] words might genuinely create a situation in which another person were to feel free to kill another "innoscent and unconnected" being as a result, for whatever cause, then the instigator disserves never to find freedom from incarceration.
Fredrik
Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2007 by Don Atkinson
Fredrik,
I think I agree with you, but just to be clear....
If Person A incites Person B to kill Person C, then Person A should be punished. ?
I presume that Person B should also be punished?
I also presume that "incite" [my word I know] implies a deliberation on the part of Person A, rather than a guenuinely careless mis-use of language.
I also presume that actions authorised by the UN to "use whatever means" are exempt, as is self-defence.
But if Person A incites Person B to hate person C to such an extent that Person B feels entitled to kill Person C, then Person A should be punished ?
I agree with the above above.
Cheers
Don
I think I agree with you, but just to be clear....
If Person A incites Person B to kill Person C, then Person A should be punished. ?
I presume that Person B should also be punished?
I also presume that "incite" [my word I know] implies a deliberation on the part of Person A, rather than a guenuinely careless mis-use of language.
I also presume that actions authorised by the UN to "use whatever means" are exempt, as is self-defence.
But if Person A incites Person B to hate person C to such an extent that Person B feels entitled to kill Person C, then Person A should be punished ?
I agree with the above above.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 18 January 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Don,
Don wrote;
I agree. Yes! And the instigator, Person A should be just as severely dealt with as the Person B, the actual doer of the physical act...
ATB from fredrik
Don wrote;
quote:But if Person A incites Person B to hate person C to such an extent that Person B feels entitled to kill Person C, then Person A should be punished ?
I agree. Yes! And the instigator, Person A should be just as severely dealt with as the Person B, the actual doer of the physical act...
ATB from fredrik
Posted on: 18 January 2007 by scipio2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rasher:
There is something we can all do. We can take these voiced arguments and imagine that we are in Germany in the 1930's, and substitute the word Muslim for Jew.
This is sheer nonsense. The Jews in Germany were never involved in murderous activities instigated by their clerics in the name of Jehovah, unlike the muslim fanatics in the UK and elsewhere today.
OK, they are in the minority but the so-called moderate muslims have done little to stop them, but rather try find excuses for their maniac convictions.
There is something we can all do. We can take these voiced arguments and imagine that we are in Germany in the 1930's, and substitute the word Muslim for Jew.
This is sheer nonsense. The Jews in Germany were never involved in murderous activities instigated by their clerics in the name of Jehovah, unlike the muslim fanatics in the UK and elsewhere today.
OK, they are in the minority but the so-called moderate muslims have done little to stop them, but rather try find excuses for their maniac convictions.