The Threat of Extremisms
Posted by: scipio2 on 16 January 2007
The disclosure that fanatical muslim clerics are still being allowed to preach murder and mayhem in UK mosques (C4 15th January) is most disturbing.
Despite the example of Abu Hamsa, who was allowed to incite the London suicide bombers from the Finsbury Park mosque before being jailed, it appears that Blair's government has taken no action to arrest and deport similar extremists before they can do even more damage to our society.
The specific example shown in the C4 TV programme featured an black American convert to Islam spewing hatred against 'kuffars' (all those who do not share his belief in the teachings of Mohammed) in the main mosque in Birmingham.
Why was he even all allowed to enter Britain, let alone incite weak-minded muslim youths to murderous activities against the country which has given them shelter?
Let's be very sensible if we're responding to this. I suspect that there is a conversation to be had on this subject - I just doubt it will be conducted by reasonable members.
Adam Meredith
Despite the example of Abu Hamsa, who was allowed to incite the London suicide bombers from the Finsbury Park mosque before being jailed, it appears that Blair's government has taken no action to arrest and deport similar extremists before they can do even more damage to our society.
The specific example shown in the C4 TV programme featured an black American convert to Islam spewing hatred against 'kuffars' (all those who do not share his belief in the teachings of Mohammed) in the main mosque in Birmingham.
Why was he even all allowed to enter Britain, let alone incite weak-minded muslim youths to murderous activities against the country which has given them shelter?
Let's be very sensible if we're responding to this. I suspect that there is a conversation to be had on this subject - I just doubt it will be conducted by reasonable members.
Adam Meredith
Posted on: 18 January 2007 by ianmacd
Hi Scipio2
I agree.
Why aren't the "moderates" much louder in their condemnation of the fanatics? You would think that they would want to be seen to be putting as much distance between the two as possible.
As an example, the female prat who leads Liberty (can't remember her name, Shapriati or something), anyway, even during the tragedy of the London bombings, she just couldn't condemn in Totality the actions of extremists without banging on about Iraq and the need for better integration in this country.
The sooner I can piss off to live in Normandy, the better. Unfortunately, I'm just not financially secure enough yet and wont be for many years, my fault, I'm just not clever enough !
A fed up Ian
I agree.
Why aren't the "moderates" much louder in their condemnation of the fanatics? You would think that they would want to be seen to be putting as much distance between the two as possible.
As an example, the female prat who leads Liberty (can't remember her name, Shapriati or something), anyway, even during the tragedy of the London bombings, she just couldn't condemn in Totality the actions of extremists without banging on about Iraq and the need for better integration in this country.
The sooner I can piss off to live in Normandy, the better. Unfortunately, I'm just not financially secure enough yet and wont be for many years, my fault, I'm just not clever enough !
A fed up Ian
Posted on: 18 January 2007 by u5227470736789439
The problem with terrorists, however mad and horrible we might think them, is that they would have no support at all if they did not have a case to make. The fact that they have completely unacceptable methods to get their messge forward does nothing to diminish the fact that they do have a case. In the end conflicts are always solved by talking to terroists, and there is one very strong recent example in the current Irish situation. One may abhor some of the parties involved, but reality dictates that these people must be worked with in the end... Peace at the price of talking with a former terrorist is better than a War-like sitation. This is different to simply conceding every point though. Hard negociation is the key, but one with an eye on the case of the former enemy as well. Politicians are very slow to see this point as being one of strength, but their view in a democracy is often too short term, and their means of action too self-serving.
This does not stop me wishing that moderate people would distance themselves from the real brutes who stop at nothing, but it does emphasis that there is a case to examine, and eventually persue.
ATB from Fredrik
This does not stop me wishing that moderate people would distance themselves from the real brutes who stop at nothing, but it does emphasis that there is a case to examine, and eventually persue.
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 19 January 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:The problem with terrorists, however mad and horrible we might think them, is that they .......... do have a case.
Fredrik,
The case presented by extreme islamist, appears to me to be that they wish to rule the world (that includes you and me) under their extreme interpretation of Sharia law. I don't want this to happen.
I haven't heard a cogent case, presented by any sensible Muslim/Arab/Islamist as to what their specific/general grievence(s)/whinges are, or what proportion of the Muslim/Arab/Islamic community they represent
Which terrorist are you going to speak to tomorrow, and what will be the subject of their grievence. Should they take their case to the UN?
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 20 January 2007 by scipio2
The powers that be in the UK should realise that the so-called moderate muslims have also been deluded by the same creed as that proclaimed by the extemists, albeit to a less fanatical degree, and that therefore any hope of exterminating the latter by appealling to the former is a 'dead duck'.
Posted on: 20 January 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Don,
I am sure that my willingness to leave the UK puts me into a signicantly small minority, and that this willingness wants me to move east within Europe puts me into a much smaller group.
I think the UK is finished, not least because here we worship at the alter of Anglo-Saxon [including the US, of ourse] capitalism, and also a silly liberatility that somehow imagines that such a thing as multi-culturalism is possible - all IMHO, of course. All this amounts to is that we accept and tollerate [but certainly do not necessarily like, if we are honest with ourselves] rather strange foreign cultures and their values, and refuse to ask incomers to cleave to our own old and well honed cultures - to behave according to UK standards of tollerance and behaviour. When I depart the shores of my birth I expect to fit into the new culture by adopting its values, language, and even Roman Catholic Christianity.
Necessarily this involves finding a place with a culture not inimical to my own inbred one. I find the idea of Muslim's preaching Sharia law most unacceptable, but I do think that that Politically Correct Britain will face this option, and fail to address it satisfactorily. I have no intention of being in the UK to see the day. The UK is finished and morally broken for many, even if the majority have yet to see it. Please do give this horrid over-crowded island, with simply nothing going for it, to the madmen, and find a better if perhaps less apparently tollerant and multi-cultural place, and live there according to decent moral values, which let's face it have been ruled out of court in UK by the PC brigade for the last forty years, and let the loonys get on with it here - again all in my humble opinion - ...
As for the idea that Sharia Law setting foot in UK, I would willing leave even earlier than planned.
As for Bin Laden and Al Quaida. There is no stated plan, but these people are truly empowered by the US and the UK's adoption of US foreign policy, which allows a certain strain of Muslim extremist to say that we are trying to dominate the Arab Muslim world - thus finding the perfect recruiting ground. If you see the British Military Thread, then you will see that there is a good debate going on there on this very subject. I would personally characterise Bin Laden as an anarchist, as much as a terrorist. No solution will fit his determination except total civil breakdown, followed by the world dominated by his kind of governement. I believe the UK is so bound up with PC madness that the result will be inevitatbly horrible in UK. Civil war is not entirely inconceaveable in UK, and I have no intention of being here to see it.
The trouble is that vested and capitalist interests have far more to loose from this than I do!
As for my point about terrorists having a case, all I would say is examine the case of Isreal, which has completely ruined Palestine, in a way that the whole world found unacceptable in the same style as of White Aparthiede South Africa. There is the starting point for Muslim extemism in the Middle Eats, including Bin Laden so I believe they have some case, though we might not care to admit it. First let us pull the beam out of our own eye before preaching to the Islamic extremist about the mote in his Islamic eye... If we get our foreign policy right then the Extremist Islamist have no business finding support among moderate Islamics in UK. Fat chance I might think.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I am sure that my willingness to leave the UK puts me into a signicantly small minority, and that this willingness wants me to move east within Europe puts me into a much smaller group.
I think the UK is finished, not least because here we worship at the alter of Anglo-Saxon [including the US, of ourse] capitalism, and also a silly liberatility that somehow imagines that such a thing as multi-culturalism is possible - all IMHO, of course. All this amounts to is that we accept and tollerate [but certainly do not necessarily like, if we are honest with ourselves] rather strange foreign cultures and their values, and refuse to ask incomers to cleave to our own old and well honed cultures - to behave according to UK standards of tollerance and behaviour. When I depart the shores of my birth I expect to fit into the new culture by adopting its values, language, and even Roman Catholic Christianity.
Necessarily this involves finding a place with a culture not inimical to my own inbred one. I find the idea of Muslim's preaching Sharia law most unacceptable, but I do think that that Politically Correct Britain will face this option, and fail to address it satisfactorily. I have no intention of being in the UK to see the day. The UK is finished and morally broken for many, even if the majority have yet to see it. Please do give this horrid over-crowded island, with simply nothing going for it, to the madmen, and find a better if perhaps less apparently tollerant and multi-cultural place, and live there according to decent moral values, which let's face it have been ruled out of court in UK by the PC brigade for the last forty years, and let the loonys get on with it here - again all in my humble opinion - ...
As for the idea that Sharia Law setting foot in UK, I would willing leave even earlier than planned.
As for Bin Laden and Al Quaida. There is no stated plan, but these people are truly empowered by the US and the UK's adoption of US foreign policy, which allows a certain strain of Muslim extremist to say that we are trying to dominate the Arab Muslim world - thus finding the perfect recruiting ground. If you see the British Military Thread, then you will see that there is a good debate going on there on this very subject. I would personally characterise Bin Laden as an anarchist, as much as a terrorist. No solution will fit his determination except total civil breakdown, followed by the world dominated by his kind of governement. I believe the UK is so bound up with PC madness that the result will be inevitatbly horrible in UK. Civil war is not entirely inconceaveable in UK, and I have no intention of being here to see it.
The trouble is that vested and capitalist interests have far more to loose from this than I do!
As for my point about terrorists having a case, all I would say is examine the case of Isreal, which has completely ruined Palestine, in a way that the whole world found unacceptable in the same style as of White Aparthiede South Africa. There is the starting point for Muslim extemism in the Middle Eats, including Bin Laden so I believe they have some case, though we might not care to admit it. First let us pull the beam out of our own eye before preaching to the Islamic extremist about the mote in his Islamic eye... If we get our foreign policy right then the Extremist Islamist have no business finding support among moderate Islamics in UK. Fat chance I might think.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 21 January 2007 by ianmacd
Hi Fredrik
I agree with every single word in your post.
Thank goodness there is someone who agrees with me that politically correct Britain is way past the point of saving.
I too believe Britain is a timebomb waiting to explode, so many good, decent people I speak to are fed up with the no-compromise demands of even moderate Muslims and their unwillingness to absolutely distance themselves from atrocities.
Regards, Ian
I agree with every single word in your post.
Thank goodness there is someone who agrees with me that politically correct Britain is way past the point of saving.
I too believe Britain is a timebomb waiting to explode, so many good, decent people I speak to are fed up with the no-compromise demands of even moderate Muslims and their unwillingness to absolutely distance themselves from atrocities.
Regards, Ian
Posted on: 21 January 2007 by scipio2
quote:Originally posted by ianmacd:
Hi Fredrik
I agree with every single word in your post.
Thank goodness there is someone who agrees with me that politically correct Britain is way past the point of saving. Many people I speak to are fed up with the no-compromise demands of even moderate Muslims and their unwillingness to absolutely distance themselves from atrocities.
Regards, Ian
Yes. A recent poll conducted amongst muslims in the UK showed that 20% actually sympathised with their religious compatriots who carried out suicide bombing missions in the cause of Islam, whilst of the remainder many were but lukewarm in their condemnation.
This is the dire situation in which our politicians, past and present, have landed us by allowing such people to settle here in such vast numbers.
Posted on: 27 January 2007 by scipio2
This thread was originally concerned with religious extremism of a particular variety but was 'edited' to make it appear otherwise.
Why?
Why?
Posted on: 27 January 2007 by Don Atkinson
I think its down to the very PC correctness brigade about which Fredrik and many others (including myself) are concerned.
They are (usually) extremists themselves and won't tollerate any critiscm of their percieived "liberal" views.
But at least Adam did annotate your first post expressing his doubt that any reasonable members would take part in this debate. Since I presumed that Adam had already ejected unreasonable members from the forum, I found the remark somewhat ironic.
I share the view of others that the "moderate" Muslim community an Britain and elsewhere in the world, have failed to inspire any confidence in me, that they unreservedly condem the outrages committed by Islamic Extremists, let alone intend to do anything about it, other than to sit on the sidelines and gloat.
Cheers
Don
They are (usually) extremists themselves and won't tollerate any critiscm of their percieived "liberal" views.
But at least Adam did annotate your first post expressing his doubt that any reasonable members would take part in this debate. Since I presumed that Adam had already ejected unreasonable members from the forum, I found the remark somewhat ironic.
I share the view of others that the "moderate" Muslim community an Britain and elsewhere in the world, have failed to inspire any confidence in me, that they unreservedly condem the outrages committed by Islamic Extremists, let alone intend to do anything about it, other than to sit on the sidelines and gloat.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 28 January 2007 by scipio2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
I think its down to the very PC correctness brigade about which Fredrik and many others (including myself) are concerned.
They are (usually) extremists themselves and won't tollerate any critiscm of their percieived "liberal" views.
Just so. The PC brigade both here and elsewhere in British society are responsible for encouraging the religious fanatics to believe that we dare not take action to eradicate them. They are living in a fool's paradise.
I think its down to the very PC correctness brigade about which Fredrik and many others (including myself) are concerned.
They are (usually) extremists themselves and won't tollerate any critiscm of their percieived "liberal" views.
Just so. The PC brigade both here and elsewhere in British society are responsible for encouraging the religious fanatics to believe that we dare not take action to eradicate them. They are living in a fool's paradise.