Request: Naim UPNP server software

quote:

But, when I'm not at home MY iPhone is always away as well - thus, I'd like the option to have normal desktop client for my family + the a.m. benefits of a desktop system. And IMO there are still much more people with desktop systems than with i-devices even here on this forum. The same with the Creston or AMX - why make the life more complex as it is already and make such installments, if the only part we need is a peace of software, installed in a couple of seconds on a normal computer?

Thanks Okli, this is exactly what I mean!
Phil's reply is extremely logical (about AMX and Creston)for the high end market segment.
But Phil, the uniti line customers are not exactly the same than the 500 serie!
Okli make the point when he said we need a software installed in a couple of seconds on a normal (and probably already at home) computer.
On the other side Naim should purpose an optional remote like AMX products:

or a supposed less expensive:


Ps,
I've three passion in my life, Music, Voralberg modern architecture, and Mozartkugel! Oups I forget... my wife

quote:

Maybe I've missed all the requests that you're referring to - we obviously get a huge number of "If only it did ..." - and believe it or not we do try to listen to requests but there has to be a significant case for implementing new facilities or porting aplications to new platforms as it's a hefty chunk of work.

Phil,
I've posted this question few days ago here
https://forums.naimaudio.com/ev...2903417/m/1812907637
but yes requesting is easy and...etc.
Ps: At this point the discussion was viewed 1170 times, a sign?

quote:

Ps: At this point the discussion was viewed 1170 times, a sign?

No, this is because you mentioned Mozartkugeln ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Harris:
This thread itself was requesting that we release the UPnP *SERVER* software that we run on the UnitiServe / NS0x and HDX as a PC application - this isn't either nServe or nStream.

Maybe I've missed all the requests that you're referring to - we obviously get a huge number of "If only it did ..." - and believe it or not we do try to listen to requests but there has to be a significant case for implementing new facilities or porting aplications to new platforms as it's a hefty chunk of work.

Phil

Phil, I know this. May be time for RFE/bug tracking system for the customers?

Anyway, thank you for sharing this "inside" information here - not common practice and I'm really thankful for that as well as for the excellent support from Naim, I've experienced so far. Let's see what comes in the future.

Phil Harris has a point when he says that many people do not want to use a computer to interact with UnitiQute or NaimUniti.

But some do....

Regarding the multiple ways to control these units: Phil is right, this as a very strong point especially for a family.

For instance, I have observed that my kids are using the buttons on the front panel to select what they want, increase or decrease the volume etc. Probably because they do not need to look for the remote. It is also much simpler to use for them as there are less buttons and they are bigger than on a remote. The indications on the screen are quite clear and if the music tree is well structured, you can find your way relatively easily.

Now with that said, I agree that for browsing a large collection, you need a larger screen.

So in the end there are different use cases.

Intuitively I see several factors that can define those use cases.

1- household composition: single adult, multiple adults, family with children
2- owners of iDevices: yes/no
3- main usage: shuffle preferred, on-the-fly playlist, individual song selection

For instance, for a single person who owns an iPod and is mostly using the system in shuffle mode, the nStream application looks like a perfect solution.

For a family who does not own an iDevice and where people like to create playlists on the fly from a large music collection, then using a shared computer seems a better approach.

Generally speaking:
a) a mobile device works for an individual user.
b) when multiple people share the system, then there should be also a shared control point.
c) remote control is more important for adults than for kids
d) to create play lists or browse from a large collection, a large screen is more convenient

Today we have a good range of options: unit control panel, Naim Remote, nStream, Foobar, Andromote ...

In the end, the complaint exist because the third party application are not perfectly integrated with the Naim software and cannot offer all the control features. If some progress can be made in this direction, I think we are not very far from the Nirvana.

Alamanka,
perfect

quote:

Yes Phil, I know that I can control Qute with the remote control, but you would agree that it is not very convenient way to browse your entire library on the Qute's display with the remote control.

am I completely wrong about there being a desktop GUI for just about every UPNP servers???? What am i missing here?

The way I see it you can control these with:
- iApp
- Remote Control/Front Panel Button/Displays
- Any computer.... (I cannot think of a UPNP server that doesn't have some kind of GUI)

Okli, what are you using to serve up files to the Qute?

-Patrick

quote:

Any computer.... (I cannot think of a UPNP server that doesn't have some kind of GUI)

SERVER
I'm not sure an Upnp server embedded into a nas on the network have its own GUI.
Of course you can run an UPNP server in a computer and control the nas but in this case the computer should be turn on every time.

PLAYER
"Any computer...."cannot actually control the uniti(Qute) completely as this is exclusively available from Iapp.

Not sure I respond to you...
Does this helps?

Vortexbox can be controlled from any computer simply by logging onto vortexbox.local via a browser. I use an iPad / iMac and it works like a charm. It is a shame more of the UnitiServe's functions can't be accessed this way.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
Vortexbox can be controlled from any computer simply by logging onto vortexbox.local via a browser. I use an iPad / iMac and it works like a charm. It is a shame more of the UnitiServe's functions can't be accessed this way.

Tog

Yes they can!

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
am I completely wrong about there being a desktop GUI for just about every UPNP servers???? What am i missing here?

The way I see it you can control these with:
- iApp
- Remote Control/Front Panel Button/Displays
- Any computer.... (I cannot think of a UPNP server that doesn't have some kind of GUI)

Okli, what are you using to serve up files to the Qute?

-Patrick

As already stated - the integration with 3rd party software is limited, due to the closed netAPI, which handles everything in the background. Actually, browsing my 3rd party UPnP server has nothing to do with Naim and we are coming again to the topic of this thread - why not provide Naim server software, which can be installed on 3rd party hardware and together with nstream brings complete package with features beyond Upnp? It will be than up to me - the customer - to decide if I want to buy Naim server, because of its perfect sound, ripping and build quality or should I go for something cheaper compromising these factors. Actually, that's the way how the things work with a normal audio equipment - I decided for Naim because of the key factors such as SQ and build quality and not because of the provided remote control...

quote:

Originally posted by okli:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
am I completely wrong about there being a desktop GUI for just about every UPNP servers???? What am i missing here?

The way I see it you can control these with:
- iApp
- Remote Control/Front Panel Button/Displays
- Any computer.... (I cannot think of a UPNP server that doesn't have some kind of GUI)

Okli, what are you using to serve up files to the Qute?

-Patrick

As already stated - the integration with 3rd party software is limited, due to the closed netAPI, which handles everything in the background. Actually, browsing my 3rd party UPnP server has nothing to do with Naim and we are coming again to the topic of this thread - why not provide Naim server software, which can be installed on 3rd party hardware and together with nstream brings complete package with features beyond Upnp? It will be than up to me - the customer - to decide if I want to buy Naim server, because of its perfect sound, ripping and build quality or should I go for something cheaper compromising these factors. Actually, that's the way how the things work with a normal audio equipment - I decided for Naim because of the key factors such as SQ and build quality and not because of the provided remote control...

Does Apple sell their Mac O/S so people can install it on their own PCs to make them work easier for the user?

No!

No, but Microsoft, IBM, RedHat, Novell, Google, Nokia, etc... do this, some of them even for free...

quote:

Originally posted by Gordon McGlade:
Does Apple sell their Mac O/S so people can install it on their own PCs to make them work easier for the user?

No!

Actually yes, but I was not 100% sure - from Wikipedia:

--
Mac OS X's core is a POSIX compliant operating system (OS) built on top of the XNU kernel, with standard Unix facilities available from the command line interface. Apple has released this family of software as a free and open source operating system named Darwin.
--

@Gordon - best bet is Linux - Vortexbox is built on Fedora 14 - free, packaged and robust.

Linn have allowed third parties to work with their software Cara and provide desktop software Kinsky. Chorus Ds is one example of where a one man band has developed excellent control software for IPAD/iOS - they seem quite keen on delegating some of the difficulties of developing software in-house.

Open source software develops in quite a haphazard fashion but it does in the end follow need - not perfect but quite Darwinian (David Dever will disagree)

@okli - I think some of the Naim issues may stem from software work done with their commercial partners - Phil may be able to comment.

Apple doesn't give their software away - but if you buy their MacMini Server - OSX Server is very cheap.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by okli:
No, but Microsoft, IBM, RedHat, Novell, Google, Nokia, etc... do this, some of them even for free...

Not free for shipping (commercial) products - you're dreaming....

@David

Depends how you define commercial - what is the difference between Oracle's "community" software -aside from the fact it is older versions of commercial products.

How does mySQL fit into this picture or Moodle?

Tog

David, IMO this is the reality, but we are out of topic again. To re-cap my findings from this thread:

1) Naim server software: won't be available

2) n-stream support for other systems than iOS: won't be available

3) netAPI remains "closed"

Phil, if I misunderstood something from above, please correct me accordingly and thanks again for the useful info.

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
@David

Depends how you define commercial - what is the difference between Oracle's "community" software -aside from the fact it is older versions of commercial products.

How does mySQL fit into this picture or Moodle?

Tog

Interesting you chose MySQL–if you release a commercial product based on MySQL into the market, you'd sure as better have a support agreement in place (not free, and no longer cheap).

On topic–a commercial product must be properly supported (which n-Stream and n-Serve are) on a platform which CAN be properly supported (iOS), to control devices which are manufactured with a hardware warranty (Naim units).

This is an important distinction in the market between Naim's branded (n-Serve and n-Stream) apps on iOS devices, and Linn's reliance on third parties to support their platform. And I will tell you, this distinction is not lost on the greater commercial market, especially at the retailer and customer integrator level in the US.

Likewise–the support headaches with releasing a Windows (or Mac) desktop app into the market, especially one that provides similar or partial functionality to existing server products in the market, far outweigh, in my opinion, the minor bits of whining that emanate from those who want something for cheap (or nothing), but want full support.

Two sides to every story exist, and I think that discussions regarding the open-vs-closed models are missing the crucial elements of development and support that define the discourse.

I think the point is the underlying product is free but support is available for a price.

I don't think the purpose here is to criticise Naim for their prodcts but to point the way to a faster development process. Naim are moving into areas where they can't rely on their traditional expertise but an area where the computer audiophile community is already established and very sophisticated in their requirements.

I think it will be difficult for Naim to satisfy both those customers who are already computer literate whilst providing their traditional clients with a straightforward alternative to CD and analogue.

I think Linn - who have a head start on streamers have learnt the hard way and are prepared to look for support wherever they can find it. Involving your clients in the process of making your products more attractive to them is hardly new - and this forum together with the contributions of people like Phil proves that Naim understand the importance of a dialogue.

Some customers will only want a box that is plugs in and works but many of Naim's new clients are interested in pushing the boundaries of what is possible with Naim kit.

The old model is proprietory hardware - we support our stuff for the customer...stop whining! The new model is software driven with quick development cycles that needs either massive resources or collaborative user involvement.

Even with unlimited resources the big boys can make horrible mistakes with software. I don't think relatively small UK Hifi manufacturers have the resources to make those kinds of mistake.

Apple / Microsoft hand around bigger bonuses than Naim's annual turnover!

Tog

quote:

Likewise–the support headaches with releasing a Windows (or Mac) desktop app into the market, especially one that provides similar or partial functionality to existing server products in the market, far outweigh, in my opinion, the minor bits of whining that emanate from those who want something for cheap (or nothing), but want full support.

M Dever, with all due respect, again I'm strongly disagree with this kind of statement.
As Okli said :
1) Naim server software: won't be available (supposed for other system than iOS)
2) n-stream support for other systems than iOS: won't be available

n-serve and n-stream havn't anything to do without any Naim products.
I (and other like Okli) are ready to pay directly or indirectly to have these products available for other platform than Apple mobile devices.

quote:

especially one that provides similar or partial functionality to existing server products in the market

Pprecisely the term "partial" indicate that no products are completely equal to original Naim solutions (Thanks to Phil we know why.)

quote:

in my opinion, the minor bits of whining that emanate from those who want something for cheap (or nothing), but want full support

Excuse me, but this is extremely wrong and personally for myself I find this affirmation quasi defaming!
"the minor bits of whining" I've abandoned my diaper for a long time and I'm far than using adult models!
"but want full support" where you've seen naim support other products than its wonderful
hifi systems?

I'm surprised to hear this kind of things from a trade member!

Going back to the initial request on this thread, I admit I am a bit confused.

I understand the need for additional control applications for NaimUniti and UnitiQute because some use cases are not well covered with the nStream application. We discussed it and this is clear.

On the other hand, I do not understand the request for a Naim standalone Upnp server software.

If I want a Naim Upnp server, then I can decide to purchase the UnitiServe or the HDX.

If I want simply software to organize a music library and allow streaming, then I can purchase Twonky media server or find some open source software.

Besides, many Nas boxes come with this software already installed. Why would I want as a customer to install a different software?

Please, can someone spell out clearly what are exactly the problems that a stand alone Naim Upnp software is supposed to solve?

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Alamanka:
Please, can someone spell out clearly what are exactly the problems that a stand alone Naim Upnp software is supposed to solve?

I have to admit that I've lost track of what the discussion on this thread is about now as it seems to have been hijacked so from the original question however I suspect that people are wanting the actual Naim UPnP server implementation to be able to install on their PCs because we have tested it with our products and have made sure that our clients are compatible with our server and vice versa.

To answer that question once more - we are highly unlikely to ever release the Naim UPnP server as a standalone application as it is tied in very tightly with the original databasing and indexing of the Naim Music Server code and would be impractical to release standalone.

UPnP - although a standard - has many different implementations which can result in some interesting (read frustrating and painfully annoying from the perspective of support) operational quirks.

Although I don't think that any software UPnP server solution out there has been faultless through all iterations it would certainly appear that the best standalone UPnP server package (in respect of it's the one I get the fewest support queries from users of) is the current (Release 3) version of Asset UPnP.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by okli:
David, IMO this is the reality, but we are out of topic again. To re-cap my findings from this thread:

1) Naim server software: won't be available

2) n-stream support for other systems than iOS: won't be available

3) netAPI remains "closed"

Phil, if I misunderstood something from above, please correct me accordingly and thanks again for the useful info.

Hi Okli,

With all due respect I think most of this thread has been "off topic" given that it started as "Request: Naim UPNP server software" however I'll try to answer the questions that keep being repeated here.

1) As stated several times, there are no plans to release the Naim UPnP server application as a standalone installer for Windows, OSX, Linux, BeOS, Darwin or any other platform. This is due to the fact that it is very tightly integrated with our own server core software and is not viable or practical to engineer out as a standalone product.

2) Implementation of applications such as "n-Stream" and "n-Serve" on other platforms is not planned at this stage by us. We have no "deal" struck with Apple (as was suggested in one posting) beyond that of a developer selling an application on the iTunes store.

3) "netAPI remains closed" - We have our own API for the servers and that is ours to implement / develop / utilise as Naim feels appropriate.

Elsewhere it was asked about the UnitiServe interfaces - the UnitiServe has a web GUI and TV GUI. Both these GUIs control what is output by the S/PDIF audio output on the back of the unit.

The TV GUI is output from the VGA / s-video / composite video outputs on the rear of the unit and can be controlled via a keyboard, mouse, IR remote or touchscreen.

The web GUI is available by pointing a web browser at the IP address of the UnitiServe.

Phil

Thanks Phil

Tog