The future of Distributed Audio

I think Dave simply because the majority of Naim users are established vinyl or CD users and for the forseeable will be sticking with what they have. That is not to decry distributed solutions no doubt they are the future in one form or other.

Fender (Strat)

I agree, but there's not a 'CD' forum or a 'Vinyl' forum, so given the relative lack of posts here I wonder if it should just be merged back? Might expose some of the traditionalist to some new ideas without dominating the conversation. And just noticed, you're only about 10 miles away - small world.

I agree Dave, let's merge this back into the Hi-Fi corner!

Regrads,
Michel

Keep it where it is - saves wading through the (sometimes tedious) threads in Hi-Fi Corner for those of us who don't have so much time on their hands.

Leave it where it is.

It is obvious, where it is.

Saves time, and effort as all the current threads are at the top in this section, and the slower rate of posting makes keeping up possible, if you do not have hours to spend at it.

George

The problem with the DA forum is that it's really gotten to be mostly discussion of cables, sound cards, dacs and other pieces of distributed audio because essentially that's where the industry is at the moment.

Even if you look at the Linn Forum the majority of discussion for the DS series is about things not working properly such as twonky interfaces, ripping, NAS devices, system (in)compatibility and they have a dedicated product line of 4 pieces of kit. Currently on the Linn forum there are almost 600 threads and almost all concern the above complaints.

So what do you expect here?

Furthermore, either all of the Linn users are incapable of a computer set-up which the installation software should easily guide you through if written properly or it demonstrates that it is better to have the company control everything without all of the third party interfaces etc... such as Naim has done with the HDX. Whether you like the product or not is not the issue to me, but I'm just talking from a "single system, single developer, compatibility" standpoint.

quote:

Distributed Audio is probably the most interesting development in the last 10 years, yet this forum is virtually dead... why?

Did you mean, distributed Audio is probably the most uninteresting development since surround sound?

For me this area became an episode of What DAC? and seem to lose focus on the most important thing the music. I used to contribute to it, but I stopped because I felt it was nothing to do with what I was after - improving my system. As I work in that dullest of industries, IT, then it is probably understandable that I feel that way.

A new release by HMHB on cassette is more interesting than the latest DAC as far as I'm concerned. I have a great DAC, it is in my CDX2 - best place for it.

You asked why this section is dead - that's my explanation.

ATB Rotf

Dear ROTF,

If you are calling music the most important aspect, then I entirely agree, but music is hardly mentioned [except occasionally in hifi-esque terms] in the Hifi Corner.


Plus ca change here then.

In fairness the HD route seems to me to get closer to music, for all the [non-musical] ritual is removed, and the false premise that the artwork and packaging has anthing substantial to offer, evapourates with Server based sstems. This is a very good thing, IMHO.

ATB from George

My take is that while some of us are ready and have got the hardware, we're still waiting for the music to be delivered in the new format. There's not much high-def available that I know of. So there we have it. What came first? The egg or...

If by Hi-def you mean 96/24, then I certainly would not hold your breath.

Most of the greatest recordings are by now restored to new digital masters at this standard, which standard was selected because the absolute majority of people cannot reliably define it from an analogue original ...

These masters are the value of assets of the major recording companies. Do you really think that they are going to issue effective clones of their masters for the price of a consumer unit, which can be cpied and blacklegged ad nauseam ... ?

In m view the only 96/24 recordings that will come will be ones with content not worth copying: Audiophile dem-discs and the like. Of course there ma be some releases from essentially audiophile labels like Linn and Naim, but EMI made clear some time ago that they had no intention of ever supporting Hi-res with their major recordings, because at a stroke they would simply effectively loose control of the master stock due to copyright infringement that would follow. They is no such thing as uncrackable copy-protection ...

Of course this imperitive may have changed, but I cannot see why, and I cannot see why it should apply any less to the other major labels with the greatest recorded archives.

George

Can Naim enlighten us with sales figures for the HDX and NaimNet? The answer may lie in their reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Keith L:
Can Naim enlighten us with sales figures for the HDX and NaimNet? The answer may lie in their reply.

Well, on 2nd November Paul Stephenson said:

"We have shipped almost a 1000 hdx players with low reported issues and the majority of those have been related to firewall blocks and ip connectivity."

The reality is that many people now download music more and more, the need for distributed audio will grow. Right now its still early days outside of the early adopters of newish technology. The performance of hard disk standard -cd quality playback still has some way to go- compared to the very best of vinynl and cd but it is possible to make a resonable sound at a resonable price better than previously achieved from computer music. This resonable sound is still not were naim wish to be its simply still not good enough and our efforts to date to get the sound quality we need is a fairly expensive machine.
If you have mutilple digital music files around the home, have access or wish to be involved in listening to 24/96 hires music or indeed archiving vinyl to hard disk or cd then the HDX does a great job. It allows seemless integration of distributed music through a interface which is easy to use, flexible and can be installed into a standard hifi system in minutes by anyone, you do not need to have any computer knowledge.
For this reason the hdx has been a very big success for us, outstripping our first forecast for sales. I think now until this sector grows, sales will continue to move forward but slowly as people have to work out just how they wish to listen to music at home. Lets face it there are still some great options from vinynl and cd, hard disk is just another choice to bring music into your home. Retailers will have to become more familiar with set up and installations and be able to make the best sound when required as well answer many of the technical questions customers may have, this will all take time for this market sector to grow.
Naimnet, well launching a fantastic sounding multi room system into a market which has just crashed is perfect timing but we do anticipate within the next two years that we will have trained around 1500 custom installers world wide on naimnet.We have already done extensive training and appointed several distributors world wide. This is a different kind of business to our main hifi route but I believe one day the paths will cross much more but it may take sometime time, perhaps much longer than many people suggest.
Unstanding how its done, how people will buy and replay music is vital for our business in the future.

Perhaps this wonderful sketch needs an update for distributed audio.

Despite my views of distributed audio - it would be useful to have a Naim DAC that would get the best out of YouTube, mySpace and some of those other sources of musical content that are not easy to find on vinyl or CD.

The HDX is partly what I'm after, but I really want something simpler and cheaper (don't really need/want the hard disks - perhaps a digital input and one for a USB stick). As a CDX2 owner I have no need to rip CDs when I can just play them. To me it is much easier to plonk a CD in the CDX2 or a vinyl record on the LP12 than fiddle around with menus on a computer screen - perhaps if I could just say to it play Argent's God Gave Rock n Roll To You then that might be something.

quote:

perhaps if I could just say to it play Argent's God Gave Rock n Roll To You then that might be something.

Not if you haven't downloaded it. Has an iPhone got voice recog?

As a fully paid up long term lurker (if there is such a thing) may I add my voice to those supporting the continued existence of "Distributed Audio" as a separate Forum?

I really do believe we are living in a period of fundamental change in the way we consume (for want of a better term) music. This doesn't just relate to the boxes (though taking a digital feed of a ripped CD from my laptop through a Beresford DAC is scarily close to my CDS2 through my system (52/SC/135s - MA GR60s)and I see the HDX as a superb product which is firmly on my wish list.
It really is more about the music. For example internet radio streamed at 128k or above sounds better than DAB to my ears and more than listenable through my fairly revealing system. More significantly for me, there is a huge amount of streamed music freely available (for free!) that I thought I would never get to hear - example sites include www.wolfgang.com which includes the Bill Graham archive of shows at the Fillimore West amongst other venues and www.archive.com which has hundreds of live shows again free to stream or in many cases download. There is no way all of this material will ever be "released" on plastic discs of any kind. I can't believe that such resources are only available catering for the tates of unreconstructed old hippies and Deadheads like me.
My point is - why "own" music? If all music is freely available or available via a reasonable subscription then I don't see the point in the long term of cluttering up my shelves with CDs (vinyl is different...). This is an economic model much more in keeping with the costs and infrastructure of of digital distribution than paying through the nose for downloads - especially with restricted "rights". I don't mind paying for music and do still buy some CDs (mostly direct from the band at gigs) but if the marginal cost of a product is effectively zero then the Itunes model can go to hell.
It may be that my rantings will prove wide of the mark but certainly "Disributed Audio" using whatever thechnologies/boxes/economic models/distribution channels is the future and this forum is the best around.
(after this lot, I bet you're all glad I don't post more often!)
Pev

You don't post for years then do 2 in 5 minutes!

For those interested the links I put in the previous post should be http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/
for the wolfgang site and
http://www.archive.org/details/etree
for the archive. I didn't really mean them to be turned into links but the software took over! (I've only been in computing since 1978)
Pev

The problem Pev is that the streaming is only mp3 at this time whether internet radio or subscription. If bandwidth and infrastructure are impoved then 24 bit streaming becomes a reality. Certainly at that point I wouldn't be buying anyore "hard" content. The problem is that mp3 file streaming just doesn't sound good enough to me. 16 bit flac/wav streaming, that would be interesting.

Gary, you are right about the current situation and I agree about the limitations of MP3 so I was to a large extent talking about the future (probably the near future as the infrastructure is likely to be driven by the potentially very lucrative video on demand market).
Having said that I'd rather hear a hot Dead show from the 70s on decent bitrate MP3 than not hear it at all. It goes without saying that those of us on this forum care about sound quality given the investments we have all made in our kit. I guess we all have our acceptable levels of compromise but I have to say I'm enjoying access to things I never thought I'd get to hear even at mid fi quality.

quote:

Originally posted by Pev:
I have to say I'm enjoying access to things I never thought I'd get to hear even at mid fi quality.

Well said Pev.
I have to say that my musical experience is being enhanced by using on-line streaming media.
I don't always need perfect reproduction , right now I'm listening to Last FM on my Sonos and it sounds great in the background . However if I want to I can access all of my Cd collection ( in fantastic quality ) or just swap over to Radio 4 with a quick scroll with out getting off my bum .
Unfortunately , the wine industry is lagging behind and eventually I will have to visit the fridge !

Ed

quote:

I'd rather hear a hot Dead show from the 70s on decent bitrate MP3 than not hear it at all.

Me too - that's why I'd be interested in Naim DAC if they ever make one. Not interested in the hard disks that's all - might as well use a modern optical disc that is quiet and compact and lets me store one album per disc.

ATB Rotf

Yes, I love my Sonos and all the access to music from last.fm to internet radio, to the rhapsody catalogue. However, when I really want to "listen to music" you need much better playback.

Rotf, I understand your situation since you own a CDX2, but for many of us, especially, those with lesser CDPs or other first time Naim buyers, the HDX really is an upgrade and fits the bill. It really does a great job with 16 bit ripped files. On 24 bit the game is really upped. The fact that Naim has done their homework with the single system, software integration makes for a very easy user experience. There are some changes which need to be made and issues addressed, but overall it's really simple and quite impressive.

Nothing like a spot of controversy to get the creative juices flowing - 25 posts in a day must be a record in DA in recent weeks...

It's really good to see so many interesting points of view, and also good not to spend all the time discussing a particular DAC - although I do expect to see a very long thread if Naim ever get around to making their own!

Long day at work, so too late to add my own views - perhaps tomorrow.

Thanks, Dave.

I also think we should keep DA seperate, it is true that things can get a bit quiet, but then there are the threads that create a lot of interest.
The comments about useage are vey intersting, I have the same useage pattern, Mac for radio, background music, podcast etc, CD for settling down to Listen to music.
I look forward to the day - which won't be too far off, when I can use my mac/notebook/ tablet as a control, pull up a track of high quality music (on my Naim ), and read about it in a set of "album notes"( added value for downloading hi-res music ?) whilst listening, or can I go directly to sections of music which have been described in the "album notes". Alternatively I can listen to internet radio etc using the same mac/notebook/tablet as a controller.
These technologies exist in some form or other now it is just a matter of time before the converge seamlessly, from naims perspective I guess that means how do they interface/link with other sources in a tidy way. Having your HDX v2 standing alone will start to make less sense for the group of people who will move to DA but still want access to both High and low quality music/radio/podcasts/ downloaded video etc.
I am certain Naim could manage this, and I look forward to following the new innovations
Barrie

Barrie,

The HDX if programmed via software upgrade, since it is hooked up to the internet, would allow access to the things you've mentioned. We'll just have to wait and see what future upgrades and features are developed.