Is the XS a Hint?
Posted by: pcstockton on 06 December 2008
Could the XS arrival point to an external Naim DAC in the future?
See ya Supernait. It was nice knowing ya.
Posted on: 06 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
Then you don't really understand the supernait and its musical capabilities. I think you'll find most people who bought a SN did so for its musical performance and the "DAC" was a bonus.
There are too many issues about getting your music to the SN DAC for most people to consider the SN DAC as an end solution for digital playback. The DAC is perfect for utilizing your Sonos/SB for music variety (rhapsody, internet radio, etc...) but certainly does not represent a high end audiophile solution.
Posted on: 06 December 2008 by james n
Patrick - lets hope so. While i love the Lavry to bits and have been a tad dissapointed with the HDX when compared to other solutions i'm really looking forward to what Naim can do.
James
Posted on: 06 December 2008 by Klout10
quote:
Then you don't really understand the supernait and its musical capabilities. I think you'll find most people who bought a SN did so for its musical performance and the "DAC" was a bonus.
Second here!
Regards,
Michel
Posted on: 06 December 2008 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Then you don't really understand the supernait and its musical capabilities. I think you'll find most people who bought a SN did so for its musical performance and the "DAC" was a bonus.
You make my point.... and I agree wholeheartedly.
If you dont need/use the DAC, the SN is redundant... no?
I guess we need some comparisons between the SN and XS.
anyway.... The XS seemed to be a nod to what may be coming.
And i think i do in fact understand its capabilities. Although it was a little out of my price range (mostly b/c it was brand new), it was the first piece of Naim gear I REALLY heard. It sold me on Naim instantly and completely blew me away.
Posted on: 06 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
No PC I didn't make your point. Haven't heard the XS yet, but given rec. systems, pricing, etc... I'd be surprised if the XS matches the level of performance of the SN. There is more difference between the two than just the DAC, which is what you are implying.
Posted on: 06 December 2008 by nkrgovic
IMHO, what would be nice to see, would not be another DAC, but a full, standalone player. Something like HDX, but without the hard drive.
The webpage for HDX allready states that "the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network" - but there is no device to play those streams. Since the HDX is pricier that the CD X2, and just under the CD S3 it would be reasonable to have another "data" data player, but less expensive and without a disk...
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by nkrgovic:
IMHO, what would be nice to see, would not be another DAC, but a full, standalone player. Something like HDX, but without the hard drive.
The webpage for HDX allready states that "the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network" - but there is no device to play those streams. Since the HDX is pricier that the CD X2, and just under the CD S3 it would be reasonable to have another "data" data player, but less expensive and without a disk...
Don't know quite what you mean here as you can use Netstreams to send this to other Naimnet devices to distribute the music to various zones. That was the purpose of the whole Naimnet product line, including the NS servers, amps.
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by nkrgovic
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Don't know quite what you mean here as you can use Netstreams to send this to other Naimnet devices to distribute the music to various zones. That was the purpose of the whole Naimnet product line, including the NS servers, amps.
Naimnet are installation products, made to be controlled by a wall panel, or a fancy room remote. What I meant was that it would be nice to have something more hi-fi like. Something like a Linn DS player, if you wish, but with a DIN output, made by NAIM, and something easy to integrate with a regular NAIM system.
While HDX is by all means a superb product, you will notice that there is no alternative for lower-end NAIM systems. Even on the NAIM website the Suggested systems 1 and 2 don't include the HDX, in no small part due to it's price.
So, I was hoping for a NAIM DS player, a less expensive solution, without a hard drive, and capable of streaming from a HDX somewhere on the network, or from a network attached storage. You know, a 70mm high HDX alternative.
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
Agree. The placement of the product, if developed, has been the real discussion on the forum, regardless if developed as a "DAC" or "DS type streamer." Linn has 4 DS products on the market ranging from $2000 to $18K USD. Obviously from reports with differing levels of musical performance.
The forum members who have a Lavry DA-10 ($1000 USD) and equate the performance with CDS3 level want the Naim "DAC" to better this performance and have all the stops pulled out for not much more than they paid for the DA-10. I think for that price you'll get a "Sneaky DS" performer.
Certainly Naim, like Linn has the ability to develop the product to attain a price performance level that they want. So do you get an "intro level" performer and a series of dacs/streamers or an intro dac and then the development of a HDS type product at the upper end.
So your comments appear to be more realistic, IMO, in recognizing the "intro type" solution as opposed to the CDS3 performer at the lower cost end. Obviously time will tell!!
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by nkrgovic
While NAIM, as a private company, has no responsibility to anyone but it's owners, it would seem silly to have a NAIM DAC, when the only product that could benefit from it would be the HDX. Even more, there are ways of upgrading the HDX analogue output, by adding a dedicated PSU for it, and, since no NAIM CD has a digital out, this all seems very unlikely.
OTOH, a low-end player does seem like a viable alternative, at least to me. Something to match NAIT's, and upgradeable with a *CAP would fit nicely in the offering...
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by paremus
Naim are a private company and....
...need to build product, especially in this current economic climate, that offer clear cost / performance benefit relative to alternatives.
To mine mind its no good simply matching Linn's range price and performance wise. Nor simply 'just' besting the Lavry.
Like James, I'm very happy with my present solution - BUT - if NAIM can pull be rabbit out of the hat in the price / performance stakes; I can see myself (somehow) upgrading as I'm finding the computer / DAC has now replaced my NAT02 as primary source.
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
Could the XS arrival point to an external Naim DAC in the future?
See ya Supernait. It was nice knowing ya.
The SUPERNAIT ain't going away any time soon–it's one of Naim's best-selling products in the U.S., in spite of the fact that there are still many users that don't use the built-in DAC at all!
I guess
you'll have to wait and see....
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by nkrgovic
I think we're just having a misunderstanding... We all want "something", let's call it a Naim XX, for one purpose: to play music from the computer.
Some want XX DAC, I'm thinking about the XX streaming player, but it all comes down to XX playing from the computer, right? It's not that someone needs a DAC to connect a CD player, or a DAC to connect a DVD, or whatever, what everyone needs is a device that can play music stored on a computer.
Now, that device can access data via the network (NFS, CIFS, UPnP, whatever...) or via USB as a USB Audio source. As long as it plays music from the hard disk I don't think anyone would complain. My idea was, simply, that it would be easier to have XX connect to the network that to the USB because it has a longer reach, and I don't see the need for having a player with a S/PDIF out connected to the computer, and then the DAC having it's input from that player (think squeezebox), if I could, instead, have the XX connect directly to the computer.
Bottom line: Computer -> XX -> Amp. I don't care how it connects, as long as it does. The only possible advantage to me would be for it to be indifferent to the type of computer - ie. to work with both a Mac and a PC. That is why I thought that network might be an easier solution.
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by paremus
nkrgovic,
Agree with what you say. Network attach would be an excellent solution if it can it the performance levels - and Linn fans suggest it can. That said - I'd be more than happy with something that supports Firewire! The Weiss DAC seeming to have settled on an interesting selection of input options.
My point was more about the relative cost of such a solution; given what is already out there.
My guess on the NAIM DAC (whatever shape it is) - is Spring 09
- any predicting before or after this?
Cheers
Richard
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by u5227470736789439
I'd bet a Pound Sterling that we never see a Naim DAC.
You would have to ask why Naim would really want to produce a DAC. I think we have already seen Naim's response to this in the HDX.
I also hope that I loose my bet, but I don't think I am likely to be proved wrong on this.
George
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by paremus
George,
The bet is on. £1 - or a pint (well 1/3 of)
All the best.
Richard
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by paremus
George,
Just realized that neither of us can win without a deadline.
Shall we say 1st June 09?
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by u5227470736789439
Time agreed!
Let's call it the first pint! Guessing what a GBP will be worth by then is fruitless!
ATB from George
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
I'd bet a Pound Sterling that we never see a Naim DAC.
You would have to ask why Naim would really want to produce a DAC. I think we have already seen Naim's response to this in the HDX.
I also hope that I loose my bet, but I don't think I am likely to be proved wrong on this.
George
George, there certainly is room for a Naim DAC/DS device and I think that it would sell well. Linn DS sales cannot be lost on the Naim brass. The question for Naim is do they develop a DAC or streaming device and where do they price the kit and pinpoint the level of performance. I do feel that a device that is better than the HDX would most likely be a multi-box solution not because of the need of how to handle 24 bit material, but for the wealth of 16 bit material already out there which will be the basis for most people's collections for a long time to come.
The SN DAC is pretty good, but there are issues as I've mentioned above and regardless you wouldn't buy a SN just for the DAC. It''smeant to be a reference player and the DAC is a bonus here.
The HDX is meant to be not only a single box solution, but it's main function is to be an audiophile/upgradeable player and alternative to the CDPs with the exception of the 555 just looking at recommended systems. I don't think that Naim would make these recommendations unless they felt that they had achieved something special with the HDX. I don't think that they would go out on a limb and make suggestions of pairing the HDX +/-PSU with higher level amps, pre-amps such as the 282/250-2/252 etc... unless it worked with and complimented these other kits. It would make them look ridiculous.
All to say there is plenty of room for the Naim DAC/DS if they want to go this way and I would guess that there is a good market for this, but more towards the lower priced end of the spectrum whatever range they determine that to be. I just hate to mention this, but for those who love their DA-10 and feel that its equivalent is at or near CDS3 quality, do not expect CDS3 quality from an Naim device if released at $2-5K USD. From the reports from those that he demoed the Linn line-up neither the Sneaky, Magic or even Akurate DS kits come close to CDS3 and were talking a price point of up to $6K. Why would you expect anything dramatically different from Naim. I'm taking the Linn sound and whether you like Linn products out of the discusion and just looking at a dollar/performance equation.
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Gary,
I agree with what you wrote.
I no longer worry about the greatest approach possible to accuracy in replay, but only that which is practicle and possibly affordable, while being still enjoyable.
Therefore my personal wish would be for a Naim DAC at the end of the range more like the CD5i and 5x, at least as a start. I personally would have prefered to stay in the fold on this, but I am not the controller of the company, but only someone who was glad to buy and still run some Naim pieces.
I used to have set that went CDS2/52/200/SBLs, and only the SBLs were second hand purchases [and at that from a dealer], so in my time I probably made a small contribution to the company's financial health.
For me the HDX is just more than I could afford, and so after the Summer Road Show dem I attended, I did no more about it. On any comparisons that might be made, I am basically reluctant to make much the business of trying to assess two different pieces doing the same thing, as it tends to come down to personal taste after a while.
My solution is to try to audition potential pieces [in ascending order of of cost!], in isolation, and at some distance apart in time [specifically to avoid anything other than absolute judgements of the piece in complete isolation from anything similar] till I find something that is pleasing, and then stop!
As comparison is necessarily so subjective it can be dangerous, as unfortunately some people take these views potentially too seriously!
But my view expressing enthusiasm for something you like or indeed the opposite, is useful as far it goes if there is a description of the musical function of a model ...
After a while an assiduous reader may well conclude that a certain model should definately be auditioned, and tested for themselves!
As a somewhat reduced Naim customer, I would have liked to have been able to buy a Naim DAC. I hate CDs as physical objects and the idea of transfering everything to HD storage [as in the HDX in a different setting and price point] is most pleasing. I have found that there are solutions about that whilst probably not fairly comparable with high price adiophile offerings certainly offer the chance to enjoy music in a quality that does not ruin the music contained in the recordings.
I suppose that I am not a likely customer for High Resolution recordings or re-releases, as there is no way I would make a third pass at my library of recordings, in the manner 800 odd LPs [with some 1500 78s], up to 600 CDs, and then onto High Resolution.
I very much doubt if I really fit with Naim's ideal customer profile these days!
But I would love to loose my bet with Paremus!
ATB from George
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by js
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Gary,
I agree with what you wrote.
I no longer worry about the greatest approach possible to accuracy in replay, but only that which is practicle and possibly affordable, while being still enjoyable.
Therefore my personal wish would be for a Naim DAC at the end of the range more like the CD5i and 5x, at least as a start. I personally would have prefered to stay in the fold on this, but I am not the controller of the company, but only someone who was glad to buy and still run some Naim pieces.
I used to have set that went CDS2/52/200/SBLs, and only the SBLs were second hand purchases [and at that from a dealer], so in my time I probably made a small contribution to the company's financial health.
For me the HDX is just more than I could afford, and so after the Summer Road Show dem I attended, I did no more about it. On any comparisons that might be made, I am basically reluctant to make much the business of trying to assess two different pieces doing the same thing, as it tends to come down to personal taste after a while.
My solution is to try to audition potential pieces [in ascending order of of cost!], in isolation, and at some distance apart in time [specifically to avoid anything other than absolute judgements of the piece in complete isolation from anything similar] till I find something that is pleasing, and then stop!
As comparison is necessarily so subjective it can be dangerous, as unfortunately some people take these views potentially too seriously!
But my view expressing enthusiasm for something you like or indeed the opposite, is useful as far it goes if there is a description of the musical function of a model ...
After a while an assiduous reader may well conclude that a certain model should definately be auditioned, and tested for themselves!
As a somewhat reduced Naim customer, I would have liked to have been able to buy a Naim DAC. I hate CDs as physical objects and the idea of transfering everything to HD storage [as in the HDX in a different setting and price point] is most pleasing. I have found that there are solutions about that whilst probably not fairly comparable with high price adiophile offerings certainly offer the chance to enjoy music in a quality that does not ruin the music contained in the recordings.
I suppose that I am not a likely customer for High Resolution recordings or re-releases, as there is no way I would make a third pass at my library of recordings, in the manner 800 odd LPs [with some 1500 78s], up to 600 CDs, and then onto High Resolution.
I very much doubt if I really fit with Naim's ideal customer profile these days!
But I would love to loose my bet with Paremus!
ATB from George
But maybe it will fit you.
I know they've looked at it but I doubt they'll do anything unless they feel they've built a better mouse trap. I think there's enough call for it for something to happen.
They could knock out a great DAC with bits from their top players for a fraction of that cost in no time but perhaps there's a better approach to this format and they're working on it just like they did with the first CDS when every other high end system thought a separate DAC was solution without identifying the problem. This probably means it wont be a 5 series type product but if it's good enough and not extravagent, it would be hard to resist.
I don't think the XS has anything to do with an indication of a DAC. It will have a strong market on it's own and I doubt a 1st Naim DAC would be an entry level product so comparisons to a SN would also be moot.
Posted on: 07 December 2008 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
I think you'll find most people who bought a SN did so for its musical performance and the "DAC" was a bonus.
There are too many issues about getting your music to the SN DAC for most people to consider the SN DAC as an end solution for digital playback. The DAC is perfect for utilizing your Sonos/SB for music variety (rhapsody, internet radio, etc...) but certainly does not represent a high end audiophile solution.
Not sure what your implication is here, but the primary issues lie at the source, not necessarily at the DAC, nor rendering it sub-par in itself.
Have you tried your HDX through the DAC section yet?
Posted on: 08 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
I think you'll find most people who bought a SN did so for its musical performance and the "DAC" was a bonus.
There are too many issues about getting your music to the SN DAC for most people to consider the SN DAC as an end solution for digital playback. The DAC is perfect for utilizing your Sonos/SB for music variety (rhapsody, internet radio, etc...) but certainly does not represent a high end audiophile solution.
Not sure what your implication is here, but the primary issues lie at the source, not necessarily at the DAC, nor rendering it sub-par in itself.
Have you tried your HDX through the DAC section yet?
Agree Dave. I thought that was the message that I was giving that the problem was not the DAC, but the source. Guess I wasn't clear enough.
No, haven't tried the HDX-->SN DAC yet.
Posted on: 08 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
George, I don't think that there are many of us who would re-buy their collection at hi-resolution given the cost. Obviously some would. I was fortunate enought to only own a few cassettes when Cds came out so it was a no brainer. At this point maybe I would buy a few of my favorite recordings at hi-res, but that would be it.
Love to see 24 bit subscription services, like rhapsody or even classical like a DGG subscription--you'd love that. This would be great, but several issues exist besides the catalogue existing getting the larger files to "stream/buffer, etc..." correctly with the bandwidth issues that already exist.
We'll see-- one can only hope!!
Posted on: 08 December 2008 by gary1 (US)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by js:
They could knock out a great DAC with bits from their top players for a fraction of that cost in no time but perhaps there's a better approach to this format and they're working on it just like they did with the first CDS when every other high end system thought a separate DAC was solution without identifying the problem. This probably means it wont be a 5 series type product but if it's good enough and not extravagent, it would be hard to resist.
QUOTE]
So, a Naim DAC could also represent an upgrade to an HDX if it's at that quality level?
