Is the XS a Hint?

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by js:

They could knock out a great DAC with bits from their top players for a fraction of that cost in no time but perhaps there's a better approach to this format and they're working on it just like they did with the first CDS when every other high end system thought a separate DAC was solution without identifying the problem. This probably means it wont be a 5 series type product but if it's good enough and not extravagent, it would be hard to resist.

QUOTE]

So, a Naim DAC could also represent an upgrade to an HDX if it's at that quality level?

With which power supply on which piece? LOL I guess we'll have to wait and see what develops.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Have you tried your HDX through the DAC section yet?

I have - I think I prefer it this way than using the built-in DAC in the HDX, which was a surprise. I used a HiLine for analogue and a Chord Signature digital interconnect.

Patrick, you're talking cobblers I'm afraid. The XS will be good at its price but that's all. The SuperNait is appreciably more powerful and has a more sophisticated preamp stage - and a DAC.

Outboard supply would change that.

Sorry all...

I made the false assumption that the XS and SN were identical save the DAC.

Im stupid.

Still want a Naim external DAC. But since it appears that it is not coming anytime soon, the Lavry it is!!!

Xmas present to myself!

I realize it is policy to NOT discuss products in development. But without any kind of word either way, i must go elsewhere.

The sad part is, I might be willing to spend 4 times what I will on a Lavry if it was a Naim product.

If there was ANY comment either way about it ever happening, I would wait.

I imagine hundreds are in the same boat... which Naim is missing.... pun intended.

Sorry for the mix-up on the XS vs. SN.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
The sad part is, I might be willing to spend 4 times what I will on a Lavry if it was a Naim product.

The soundwise, the Lavry is not really worth a 4K..

I suppose it's okey for a 1k product, but if you could, look in the used market.

Anyways, don't buy a Naim kit for its badge value.

Buy it for its performance.

BTW, did you keep the CDX?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
The soundwise, the Lavry is not really worth a 4K..

I agree - more like 18k (if the price of a CDS3/XPS2/HiLine were to be used as a reference point) or perhaps a bit more.

We must be using a different calculator.

I'd say, it's worth about 500$USD. Then is a great VFM.

Not again please. This piece has profoundly divided opinion, and the evidence of this may be found in this very section of the Forum.

The trouble is that most still posting on this are replaying a very worn groove by now.

The only answer is to audition it if a person is interested.

Restatement, ad nauseam, is incredibly tedious, whether you agree with it or not.

George

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
We must be using a different calculator.

I'd say, it's worth about 500$USD. Then is a great VFM.

If it's worth that, then the CDS3/XPS2 is grossly (obscenely?) overpriced, which probably explains why so many of them are being offered for knock down prices on the second hand market - and still receiving no takers after several weeks or months. I could post a few links to back up that statement - unfortunately that would be against forum rules.

I'm not sure what your basis of evaluation is, but I (and a not inconsequential number of other forum members) remain absolutely convinced that the Lavry gets to the heart of the music in a way that all the CD players that I have heard (and that includes past ownership of all the Naim CDPs up to the CDS3) fail to do. And, unlike one CD555 owner on this forum who has voluntarily confessed that he or she finds his/her 30k machine less than inspiring (and with whom you may be familiar) it frequently thrills me with its presentation of albums I thought I knew, and has led me to start buying CDs on a regular basis once again.

In any event, as GFFJ points out, this issue has been done to death and I suppose there is no point in raking it over once again.

LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:
I'm not sure what your basis of evaluation is,

The same basis you are using but with a different calculator.

I bet a pound that Naim release a DAC in 09, I bet that it might even be used to upgrade the DAC in the HDX?!

I bet they do not release a seperate DAC, you cannot arrive at a reference source with this.

Naim are not ones for half baking anything...

I reckon you got more chance of them releasing a television.

steve

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
I bet they do not release a seperate DAC, you cannot arrive at a reference source with this.

Naim are not ones for half baking anything...

I reckon you got more chance of them releasing a television.

steve

then at least a 252 with an even better dac on board...i would buy one...then it can benefit from the supercap...and you don´t need those extra boxes 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 , 6

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
I bet they do not release a seperate DAC, you cannot arrive at a reference source with this.

Naim are not ones for half baking anything...

I reckon you got more chance of them releasing a television.

steve

They let you but there kit for crappy CD players and TTs so as long as there's are ways to supply the DAC a good signal, and there are, why not? Many will get it wrong and I wont get into how but many would also get much goodness from it.

quote:

They let you but there kit for crappy CD players and TTs so as long as there's are ways to supply the DAC a good signal, and there are, why not? Many will get it wrong and I wont get into how but many would also get much goodness from it.

Post Christmas party post ?

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
I bet they do not release a seperate DAC, you cannot arrive at a reference source with this.

My impression is that the best DACs are less sensitive (than amplifiers, for example) to the quality of the incoming digital signal due to the reclocking and other processing that they perform on that signal (although there are apparently some minor aspects of the digital signal that the DAC cannot correct). As a result, a good DAC can be regarded as a "reference source" in and of itself and the quality of the upstream component is much less of a concern than would be expected.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:
As a result, a good DAC can be regarded as a "reference source" in and of itself and the quality of the upstream component is much less of a concern than would be expected.

From what I've heard so far I would not agree at all with that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
I bet they do not release a seperate DAC, you cannot arrive at a reference source with this.

My impression is that the best DACs are less sensitive (than amplifiers, for example) to the quality of the incoming digital signal due to the reclocking and other processing that they perform on that signal (although there are apparently some minor aspects of the digital signal that the DAC cannot correct). As a result, a good DAC can be regarded as a "reference source" in and of itself and the quality of the upstream component is much less of a concern than would be expected.

I agree a DAC is the key component in digital audio but as transport also matters, why not a Naim DAC as a first step in a new separates product range, I mean a Transport (music server streamer) + DAC separates system.
Some advantages:
- No competition for HDX, HDX would be the "integrated" solution, the component system would be higher in the hierarchy.
- A standalone DAC would be available for those interested, with the possible upgrade of the transport.
I think this would be a good move from Naim.
Other point is CDP sales negative impact, but this market won't last forever and Naim might be interested in extends its prestige to the DAC market. I can understand Naim decided to go for one box solution for their CDP but I think the same logic can't be applied in the music server market. A DAC is a such a versatile product that can be used with different streamers (computers, TV, squeezeboxes and all sort of music servers , freeview tuners, DVD...), so why not take advantage of that?

A Naim DAC in the CDX2-CDS3 performace territory would be nice, priced in the 2000-3500 GBP range. PSU upgradeable. Good input connectivity (spdif, optical, AES/EBU, usb...)
A music server (digital streamer) around the 2500 mark. PSU required to operate(XPS2). Why not hard disks inside.

This would be a reference music server system for around 7000-8500 GBP (transport+PSU+DAC) and it should be a significant step ahead HDX (4500). No competition with HDX, top CD555 also untouched and a DAC available for integration in any system (great sales potential).

Another alternative would be a DAC with similar performance to CD5x in the 1000 mark, ready to integrate with computers and other digital sources. No competition with HDX and great potential sales IMO too.

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
I can understand Naim decided to go for one box solution for their CDP but I think the same logic can't be applied in the music server market. A DAC is a such a versatile product that can be used with different streamers (computers, TV, squeezeboxes and all sort of music servers , freeview tuners, DVD...), so why not take advantage of that?

I agree and believe that this is a key point for audio companies like Naim to consider in developing their product strategy. It does not require a great deal of foresight to conclude that whatever the future holds in terms of high performance domestic audio solutions, a stand alone DAC will very likely be an integral part of it, and companies that insist on focusing on high end (and highly priced) CD players with no access to the internal DAC will be at a fundamental disadvantage in such a market.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
I can understand Naim decided to go for one box solution for their CDP but I think the same logic can't be applied in the music server market. A DAC is a such a versatile product that can be used with different streamers (computers, TV, squeezeboxes and all sort of music servers , freeview tuners, DVD...), so why not take advantage of that?

I agree and believe that this is a key point for audio companies like Naim to consider in developing their product strategy. It does not require a great deal of foresight to conclude that whatever the future holds in terms of high performance domestic audio solutions, a stand alone DAC will very likely be an integral part of it, and companies that insist on focusing on high end (and highly priced) CD players with no access to the internal DAC will be at a fundamental disadvantage in such a market.

I agree with you guys and don't think Naim is blind to it either. While I feel that reclocking a less good signal isn't a solution to high end sound, I do agree that it can make less good sources quite listenable.

I'd agree with Goldfinch. I've suggest a similar price range on previous posts.

However the DAC should exceed that in the 555. No ifs, no buts - clearly exceed.

This would only be realized after investment in the appropriate ancillaries (kick arse power supply, optional streaming head end instead of computer) - BUT the latent capability must be there in the DAC at the start of the journey.

So, do Naim do a "DAC" and upgradeable PS or a 3 box solution as was originally proposed with the NS03 design with improving the guts of the HDX and removing the HDD and ripping portions to a separate box. I'm assuming here that an XPS2 would be a minimal requirement as in the CDS3. I guess the "computer box" could be an upgrade to the DAC, but without the dedicated sale for the entire unit might be too expensive to develop not knowing how many will opt in or out.

Only issue I see with the DAC/PSU is the control of your ripping solution which while others may feel is inconsequential based on their use of EAC etc..., would appear to be important for Naim to handle the wealth of already owned 16 bit material as evidenced by the HDX.

If one believes that ripping is an "issue" (I'm still not convinced) this should be a choice, and demonstrable at your NAIM dealer, rather than a restriction imposed by the solution.

In this way - having purchased my NAIM superDAC - I go to my dealers a year later, armed with my Mac Mini, a few CD's - and decide for myself if the custom front end / software / interconnect is worth it.

What is wrong with that?

Paremus, nothing is wrong with that. That is something for Naim to decide.

Personally, I appreciate the "just load the disc" into the HDX and let it do its thing. Given the numerous postings here and elsewhere with different results depending on computer and program settings, I'm talking within one software program not across different ones, I just don't want to spend my time thinking about whether I've "gotten it right." I don't have time for this, so whether the Naim solution is better than or just equivalent to other ripping solutions is a moot point for me. I trust what they've done obviously by hearing the end result.

As I said above while many people love fussing around with their computers to get things right, it's not something I'm interested in. As I posted on another thread just look at the Linn Forum DS thread and the majority of posts concern "problems" performing a variety of tasks as well as, (in)compatibility issues and Linn have a full product line. For me personally, I don't want to have to go through all of this bunk, so I appreciate that Naim have a well done integrated solution. Can it be better, yes and I'm sure it will be, but it's already reached a level I can happily live with.