Enjoyable music, Relaxing Powerful Bass, but not from Naim

Posted by: Don Atkinson on 14 October 2001

My friend Tony is a builder, so he knows a thing or two and isn't shy in giving advice or his opinions. He's into hifi in a BIG way, what with his Technics 'separates system' as he calls it. "Knocks the bollocks of yer average poncey midi system" - well, that’s what he tells all the ladies anyway. His building mates all call him 'Tone' for short and I'm sure this has something to do with his hearing and his hifi!

Anyway, he came round to dinner the other evening and as we sat for a few drinks afterwards in the lounge, I 'casually' mentioned to 'Tone' my new rack system. "Cost me two grand " I said, referring to the new 5 tier Naim Frame, and suggested a quick listen.

Half a track later, 'Tone' signalled to turn it off. " You was robbed mate," he said. "Two grand for that stuff, it's got no bollocks, no bass. Its all hoity toity treble and tizzy. Bit like a tranny on a bad day". I think what he really meant was it had a forward mid-range!

Now, I know I should have told him it was only the RACK that cost two grand and the kit had cost an extra £20k (the Wilson's were £5k second-hand) but something told me this might not be a clever move, so I just asked " What would you recommend Tone?"

The advice was instant. "Get a Technics Class AA system. Not yer cheap Class A, the fully Monty Class AA! CD player, Tuner, Double cassette deck, Thumping great 150 watts amplifier, and a pair of Mission 737 speakers, bi-wired with Monster cables" "800 quid those speakers cost, and the rest of the kit set me back another 800 quid, so that’s still cheaper than your 'tranny' but hey, does it rock! "Yer need good speakers mate - that's where the sound comes out of, so it's like critical - yer see? Put most of yer dosh where it's critical and yer won't go far wrong".

Well, today I went over to Tone's and listened to his set-up. Wow! Clear, pleasant mid and treble, plus a thumping, deep, driving bass that really rocked! Clearly not a 'flat response curve' in sight. But hey, this was ENJOYABLE and made you want to listen to MORE music. It wasn't fatiguing, it was RELAXING, in a pleasant sort of way!

Ok, perhaps there were a few tingly bits in the treble that it didn't do as well as mine and the bass was obviously artificially 'boosted' (but not bloated). It was as far as you could get from flat earth (Naim) or technical neutrality (Krell).

Now I'm tempted to buy one to put in the dining room as a second system. The kids think this is a great idea too!

What do you guys think about this? Ever heard a 'cheap' system sound 'better' than your 'expensive' one? Do your kids think you need more 'oooph!' in the bass? Ever been tempted to 'pack it all in' and take up golf? Ever had nightmares?

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 14 October 2001 by Mike Hanson
Every once in a while I'm at a friend's where the stereo is sounding good, and I'm questioning why I spent as much money as I did... Once I get home I quickly remember why.

As far as the bass thing goes, some people like more than others. Bloated bass doesn't seem "right" to me, which is why I don't have a stereo with a bass knob cranked up. However, it's been a constant complaint from my best friend, who craves stomach churning bass. When I upgraded from a 250 to 135s, his first question was whether the new gear would give me more bass. After listening, he decided that it did. big grin

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Alex S.
Despite all my ramblings, I'm happy with my main system and the second one. I don't crave bass.

My third system, now sold, consisted of £400 spent on What Hi-Fi, 5 star gear at Richer Sounds in 5 miuntes flat. I didn't bother to listen to any of it before I got it home. It was a Sony tuner, Sony CDP, Marantz Amp and Mordaunt Short speakers.

It sounded pretty good. It certainly played the same music as my bigger system.

What I have learned over the the years is 2 things:

1. Newer does not always mean better, and that applies to all manufacturers.

2. The law of diminishing returns kicks in hard after about 500 quid.

Alex

Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Harris V
I think this issue is more important than some on this forum would wish to admit. The fact that we have all enjoyed the sound coming out of various budget hi-fi/mini systems is always going to cause pain in the wallet area when we look at our systems. I personally like the type of sound yer mate describes and also have a friend that has said exactly the same of my system.

The problem in my eyes seems to be that most HiFi manufacturers maintain levels of accurate reproduction from the source (even Naim) and so reproduce bass as it is recorded. In the recording studio the engineer has set the levels to his/her satisfaction and only after that does he tune it to suit the target audience, often he leaves the bass boost or warmth to the mini systems he knows it will be played on. Most Hi Fi manufacturers don't seem to take this into account - why can't i buy an expensive system that sounds like the above one but produces a refined treble and midrange.

I think the only real solution is to have two systems - my advice, sell your Fraim and go and buy the most round earth, warm, big bass sound you can. The kids will love it. Don't get side tracked with anything to do with traditional Naim attributes and you won't go wrong.

Posted on: 15 October 2001 by woodface
I fully agree with the previous post regarding CD Mastering. I think this has a huge influence on the sound, generally the more analogue the method the better. I find that many older recording still retain the original warmth and make listening to CD's a pleasure. Vinyl in many ways is often kinder to the source, it still tells you what is wrong but without ramming down your throat!
Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Bruce Woodhouse
I love the technically accurate musical reproduction that my main system at home gives me. I also enjoy music in my car which is warm meaty big and bouncy for when I am having a good blast on a country road or singing myself home. I also like what my cheapo system does in my study, warm and fuzzy again, not diverting me from the work but still throwing out a tune.

Cheap systems work because people want different things from HiFi. My hobby is music, sitting down, concentrating on the music in all its full and expensive reproduction but I can easily see why cheapo systems as described hit the spot for so many.

Bruce

Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Alex S.
quote:
Naim systems do deliver bass - it's all there up to the moment it hits the loudspeaker.

Talk like that will get you locked up in the Padded Cell with just a Technics Midi and my Paradigm sub for company.

No more bombshells please, back to the music room.

Alex

Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Alex S.
Just the one for me. School sports day '73. Still have the tiny siver coloured cup to prove it.

Near giant leaps have included first LP12 and acoustic foam.

Alex

ps The acoustic foam is handy for softening the impact of one's failures

pps Alright, my first Naim came close.

Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Martin M
I've have a simple requirement. I want hear the note that is being played, when it is being played and no later. Sounds easy but I can think of only a couple of systems that can do it.
Posted on: 15 October 2001 by Rico
Top post, Stallion - well said.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Posted on: 17 October 2001 by Don Atkinson
two night-flying sessions in a row plays havoc with hi-fi and Forum (and lots of other things)

James L

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It wasn't fatiguing, it was RELAXING, in a pleasant sort of way!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But does it play music?"

Well, each of us has a reason for having a hi-fi set eg
1. good looks (bit like jewelry?)
2. relaxation (NOT James Last!)
3. to analyse music
4. to enjoy music

In his own way, Tone has achieved all four. Many of us havn't achieved ANY yet, and only hope to achieve item 3 or item 4 with a cdsii/52/3x500/NBL (and a mountaim of Mana!). Hopefully, James, you are one of the lucky ones who thoroughly enjoys what you have today. I enjoy the music MUCH more with the LP12-bit like your mate!

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 17 October 2001 by Don Atkinson
As far as the bass thing goes, some people like more than others.... it's been a constant complaint from my best friend, who craves stomach churning bass.

I think I must be a bit like your best friend, in this department. In LIVE music I nearly always find the bass to be a seamless, driving inspiration. Probably explains why I prefer Beethoven to Mozart (generally). Likewise, rock music takes on a different dimension when a bass guitar joins in.

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 17 October 2001 by Don Atkinson
I don't crave bass.

Quite a few people on the forum have said this, both on this thread and elsewhere (see "**Kans**")

I think however, as Harris V said just after your first post, many (ok perhaps a few) won't ADMIT to being somewhat disappointed with their hifi bass. I also have felt, that if I turn the volume up to hear the bass at a more realistic level, (especially) female vocals become harsh. Any body else found this?

Your point about diminishing returns rings bells. If I counted ALL the upgrades since my Dual/RogersAII/JR149s, I recon my system should sound BETTER than the real thing!

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 17 October 2001 by Don Atkinson
Have you asked yourself if you could live with your friends system day in - day out ? or would you start to notice ( like every one does with a new system after a while ) that aspects of the sound aren't quite what you want...... we also accept other people's systems less critically than we do our own and perhaps listen differently

I agree with what you say Steve. I doubt if I could live with his system because I already have noticed things that aren't quite right etc. and despite the overall charm of his system, mine is far more revealing and enjoyable and is in different Division altogether. I also have three daughters, each with a Denon/Technics/Sony system each of which sounds 'nice' (well I helped them choose, so they would sound nice to me!!)but again, not in the same league etc etc

The 'grass is greener' summs it up?

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 18 October 2001 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Hector:
Fwiw I am starting to believe that any serious, read expensive (new replacement cost!) system should be capable of a good bandwidth.


Jason,

have to agree with this.

The only Naim speakers that do this well enough for me are NBLs & DBLs. I suspect you need a speaker of this quality to really pull off the deep-bass thing without continually having your attention drawn to the failings of the reproduction.

Having heard the (REL) sub-woofer effect with SBLs there is a lot to be gained throughout the frequency range by the addition of those couple of octaves. Even so, an NBL is far more than an SBL with bass, of course.

Mind you, I'd love to hear active Kans with a pair of Rel 400's. Suspect this would be either a disaster, or fantastic.

For me the illusion just doesn't work with wimpy bass.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 18 October 2001 by P
Does real bass actually exist?

I've just reread Phil Wards excellent recent article in Hifi+ but am I any the wiser?


If you want gut busting, floor and wall rattling bass, then I suggest DBLs. I couldn't use them myself because the house I currently live in would literally fall to bits with such sonically disruptive and possibly destructive forces at work!
With 3 x 500's? Imagine a pile of rubble!

Some day maybe though.

I love the way my system now "does" bass BTW, it's kinda "clean" and I can also listen for hours on end and never ever feel fatigued. Now try doing that with a pair of big Dynaudios. ("We know about Bass" Yeah right)

P.

Posted on: 20 October 2001 by Don Atkinson
For me the illusion just doesn't work with wimpy bass.

Same here.

I suspect that for me, the illusion will only really materialise, full time, with a cdsii upgrade, a 500 upgrade and an NBL upgrade(doubt if even the 500 will hold up properly when the Wilson impedence drops below 2 ohms - hence the NBLs, which I would have bought instead of the Wilsons had they been introduced at that time)

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 02 November 2001 by redeye
Know ( kinda ) what you're saying. Have on occasions questioned my own system after hearing other peoples. Friend of mine called Kirsty has a poxy? Kenwood 4 box mini which in her room sounds bloody excellent!
Most Naim dealers seem to regard BASS as a nasty four letter word. My advice is jettison Naim speakers completely from your thoughts. There are much better ways man......

Redeye

Posted on: 02 November 2001 by JosephR
quote:
Originally posted by Rico:
Top post, Stallion - well said.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I agree, Stallion hit it right. Wouldn't even consider a system that can't pound the bass, and Naim delivers quality pounding bass in spades, especially 3 NAP500s and DBLs ... looks like some Naim owners can't get the bass right, and make the excuse that what they want is quality rather than quantity. Both can be had !

Posted on: 02 November 2001 by Phil Barry
Bass seems to be the most expensive part of the sound band to reproduce, and perhaps the most difficult.

Thionk of Klipschorns - the do dynamics and bass but thye make violins sound like horns. Acoustic suspension jobs (AR, KLH, Advent) and the Allisons did OK bass but sounded muffled and slow - and they required LOTS of power to get the dynamics anywhere close to right.

Music at home requires compromise. I don't hear gut-wrenching bass at Orchestra hall or B.L.U.E.S, so I don't miss it at home. If I went to rock concerst, maybe I'd have a different opinion.

Phil

Posted on: 02 November 2001 by JosephR
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Barry:
Music at home requires compromise. I don't hear gut-wrenching bass at Orchestra hall or B.L.U.E.S, so I don't miss it at home. If I went to rock concerst, maybe I'd have a different opinion.
Phil

I beg to disagree, below are some blues with gut-wrenching or just plain powerful bass / drums, on vinyl, that must be heard or felt ... I've heard and felt them in my other non-Naim systems, and I'll surely miss it. It wasn't a surprise that Naim does it better and slams harder too !

Stevie Ray Vaughan - "Little Wing" from "The Sky Is Crying" (Epic)
Muddy Waters - Folk Singer (MFSL)
Blues Company - Vintage (ESA)
Lightnin' Hopkins - Goin' Away (guitar, bass, drums) - Analogue Productions
Doug Mac Leod - You Can't Take My Blues, Come To Find - Audioquest
Robert Lucas - Luke And The Locomotives - Audioquest
John Lee Hooker - The Healer

Some Orchestra on vinyl too:

Fritz Reiner - Thus Sprach Zarathustra
Fritz Reiner or Leonard Bernstein - Mussorgsky Pictures At An Exhibition
Solti - Holst - The Planets

and many more ... after all, orchestras can have a lot of bass instruments ...

[This message was edited by JosephR on SATURDAY 03 November 2001 at 06:50.]