Beresford 7510 DAC - Calling All Owners
Posted by: joe90 on 13 January 2009
Hi guys
Who has a Beresford 7510 DAC?
What do you think?
What's your setup?
Did you try it against the Benchmark and Lavry?
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by js
It looks like there's an additional supply filter inboard of the 12v input. Large cap and diode, maybe a zener so unless you bypass that the difference may not be very significant anyway. The issue is determining when is it no longer cost effective.
I'd replace the output coupling caps with tants of at least 10v rating as I believe there's over 6 VDC to block. Only the 220mf ones near the outputs for fixed output. Vaiable and headphone outs can't be made as good but still improved with similar bits in a few more places. This isn't brain surgery. You'll probably have to parallel a few to get value but I really didn't check what's value Tants are readily available. No gaurantees as parts do sound different even if they measure the same. Combos can be intersting.
I've done these things (and slightly more)to an $80 Beresford equivilent that was on sale from MCM in the states. Fiddled about for few hours with bits I had laying around. Don't know what others have done but I suspect most revelations on the Beresford are related to coupling caps. It's a neat toy for what it costs as I'll just move it to the TV or something when I'm done with it. While it's no SN and the results not earth shattering, I've 'cheated' the sound to be acceptable enough to play around with until I can find a DAC that I actually desire. I've heard most of the mid priced DACs and some were also acceptable but didn't offer enough FOR ME either so I cheaped out just to be able to experiment at home. I'm a tweek anyway so I thought I'd take a look. Stock, it was a bit fuzzy, anemic and lacked some solidity but come on, it was $80 US shipped and lots better than the DAC in my cable box even if I had left it alone.
PC, try polarity on the AC adapter.
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by js:
PC, try polarity on the AC adapter.
js,
I dont think I have this as an option.... do I?
I dont see anything on the wall wart. I dont have a regulated power supply with a removable jack that I can "flip around" the wrong way.
Is this an internal setting?
Thanks for the heads up though.... can you clarify?
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by Keith L
quote:
Originally posted by js:
Stock, it was a bit fuzzy, anemic and lacked some solidity
That's exactly how I would describe a Beresford compared to a BM Dac1 or Lavry DA10. In many ways it's similar to the output from a stand alone sb3.
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by js:
PC, try polarity on the AC adapter.
js,
I dont think I have this as an option.... do I?
I dont see anything on the wall wart. I dont have a regulated power supply with a removable jack that I can "flip around" the wrong way.
Is this an internal setting?
Thanks for the heads up though.... can you clarify?
Mine came with a 2 amp non grounded wall wart with 2 narrow prongs. It was better flipped one way into the wall then the other, at least with US mains. If your's is a phased plug, I suspect it's correct. A bit of inductance on the power cable (wraps) may not be a bad thing though I doubt you'll notice it stock or if the input isn't top notch.
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by Keith L
Joe90, what's your take on this? Where are you hoping to go with the Beresford? What digital signal will you feed into the Beresford?
Going from your previous posts, a Beresford is far removed from the Naim creed! Are you preparing yourself for the Naim Unity or the Naim dac?
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by goldfinch:
If CA Dacmagic is similar to the digital input of my CA 740c I can say the Lavry is clearly superior. Same Hifichoice issue also reviews favourably the new Bryston BDA-1, this is available online at at techradar, unfortunately they just compare it to a very much cheaper CA Dacmagic and to a very much expensive Dcs. Completely different price level to the Bryston or the Lavry. Brilliant conclusions if you take into account the huge price difference among the three!
.
Lavry vs Bryston would be a more useful reading for potential buyers!
Anyway it seems Naim has several good alternatives to benchmark in the development of a future Naim DAC (hopefully).
You can't draw a parellel between a Dacmagic and 740c. The topology isn't the same with different bits and updsampling algorythms before the DAC. DM also has selectable filters after and a USB in so it's quite different than a 740C. You can't base it's performance on a 740c any more than you can base a Lavry's on a 840c. They also share the same DAC and upsample.
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by js:
Mine came with a 2 amp non grounded wall wart with 2 narrow prongs. It was better flipped one way into the wall then the other, at least with US mains.
It sounds like we have the same power supply. I'll give it a shot.
Stan told me to source a regulated linear power supply. That it might help things along. But in researching one, I could not find one locally nor one for less than $120 or so...
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by goldfinch
quote:
Originally posted by js:
You can't draw a parellel between a Dacmagic and 740c. The topology isn't the same with different bits and updsampling algorythms before the DAC. DM also has selectable filters after and a USB in so it's quite different than a 740C.
In case you had listened to both of them (DM and 740C through dig input), which one do you prefer?
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by js
I haven't but should have a DM in the shop some time this month. Don't have a 740C currently so I guess a direct wont happen but I'll be happy to comment on the DM as is(no comparison as we know where that will get me
) when in.
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by Exiled Highlander
PC
quote:
Allegedly, Stan is currently developing a "more expensive" DAC, and should be finished by now.
More than allegdly...I was at his house tonight and picked up a DAC for use in my flat here in London (I do have another one at home) and I saw and heard an advanced prototype. I'm not going to comment on the sound as I only heard it for a few minutes (I was in a rush) but another product at an interesting price point.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by nap-ster
With great modding potential.
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by Exiled Highlander
Indeed it does.
Jim
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by js:
Mine came with a 2 amp non grounded wall wart with 2 narrow prongs. It was better flipped one way into the wall then the other, at least with US mains.
It sounds like we have the same power supply. I'll give it a shot.
Stan told me to source a regulated linear power supply. That it might help things along. But in researching one, I could not find one locally nor one for less than $120 or so...
Exactly and where do you stop? I may try a modified PSC etc. into it at some point for fun as I have one for the TC at the same 12v but it seems over the top as I wouldn't have even bothered with the MCM if it had a Beresford price. It just showed up on special in a Xmas catalog and I realized it looked very familiar so for the $80 US to my door, it was worth a bit of entertainment. I can't actually recommend these for a serious system as I'm pretty good at tweaking and the window isn't large and even after it's still just a good cheap DAC. Fine for getting your feet wet.
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by pcstockton
I should clarify. Stan recommended I try this reg. lin. psu, in an attempt to correctly earth my kit, and remove some unwanted noise when the DAC is not receiving a signal.
But in the case that the DAC is not receiving a signal, my 102 is always muted. So it hasn't been a priority.
I use a Logitech One remote. When I switch from listening to music to anything else. I programmed it to mute my 102, then un-mute when coming back to music.
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by chaliapin
Beware - I put a Beresford between my Mac and a Nait 5i and was so impressed by the difference a new dac made that I went out and bought a Supernait.
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by Wazza69
I had a Lavry and changed to a Beresford. I couldn't live with the voicing on the Lavry but it did have an incredible amount of detail and a very Hifi sound to me (even though its not designed to be hifi!)
I find the Beresford to be very good for the money, it certainly took quite a while to burn in and improved quite a lot after a while. I use it with a Airport Express and also sound great with my DVD and SkHD boxes.
Wayne
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by Wazza69:
I had a Lavry and changed to a Beresford. I couldn't live with the voicing on the Lavry but it did have an incredible amount of detail and a very Hifi sound to me (even though its not designed to be hifi!)
I find the Beresford to be very good for the money, it certainly took quite a while to burn in and improved quite a lot after a while. I use it with a Airport Express and also sound great with my DVD and SkHD boxes.
Wayne
How long did you have it when you started the 'few weeks later' thread?
Posted on: 16 January 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
I should clarify. Stan recommended I try this reg. lin. psu, in an attempt to correctly earth my kit, and remove some unwanted noise when the DAC is not receiving a signal.
But in the case that the DAC is not receiving a signal, my 102 is always muted. So it hasn't been a priority.
I use a Logitech One remote. When I switch from listening to music to anything else. I programmed it to mute my 102, then un-mute when coming back to music.
What type of noise? If it's a pop when switshing, it's DC which would indicate a reversed or defective/shorted output cap on the DAC. Hum, thermal noise? I can also help with the grounding but I don't think that it's related to your noise issue and usually not an issue overall. It's really only about giving the pre case an earth, the key is to give it only one with awareness of paths but noise shouldn't be associated with it. Have you spoken to your local dealer? What else do you keep connected? You can reach me at js95@sbcglobal.net
Posted on: 17 January 2009 by js
Should have said pre case and reference earth.
Posted on: 17 January 2009 by pcstockton
JS,
Thanks for the offer of help.
I do not have any other source besides the B-ford DAC. No TT, no CDP. nothing.
I have asked over and over in various threads, exactly how to correctly earth my system given this. No one has been able to, or willing to, answer.
In talking with DavidD, he said there would be no way of knowing anything about my earthing arrangement without a NAIM cdp. He said a different CDP, such as Arcam or Linn, would not guarantee correct earthing, and most likely wouldn't.
How do people without Naim CDPs earth their kit? What if no TT?
I couldn't even get an answer about what kind of TT, or way of hooking it up, would correctly earth my kit.
In any event. I have described the "noise" in several threads in the past.
This summation is the following:
The "noise" is a high pitched hiss/buzz. Almost oscillating in nature.
The noise is ONLY occurring when:
- there is no signal being fed to the DAC.
- the DAC is off.
- I change the input of front to something other than what is connected in the back.
The following is from an email from Stanley Beresford to myself concerning "noise" i am getting from his DAC. I think this is the issue. By the way, only a few of my friends can even hear the "noise". Most cannot hear it. A local hifi dealer certainly couldn't hear anything. So it might be present in all B-ford DACs and its just people hearing threshol dis not the same as mine.
"I have no doubt that the cable could be working without any problem on other equipment. Most manufacturers use just one earthing point so save cost and complexity in the design, even though it is not the recommended way. But that's a different issue. At the end of the day the cable wiring is not suitable for separate Left and Right GROUND, which is causing problems for you when you wire my DAC to your NAIM. The standard modern day wiring is RCA, and I have no idea why NAIM doesn't follow industry wiring practice.
Anyhow, as I said, if you can't wire in the DAC to your NAIM with separate left and right signal earthing on the connection cable, then you won't be able to use the DAC on it.
Have you asked on the NAIM forum what type of wiring the other guys use? Perhaps they have a different model NAIM to you?
Posted on: 17 January 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
JS,
Thanks for the offer of help.
I do not have any other source besides the B-ford DAC. No TT, no CDP. nothing.
I have asked over and over in various threads, exactly how to correctly earth my system given this. No one has been able to, or willing to, answer.
In talking with DavidD, he said there would be no way of knowing anything about my earthing arrangement without a NAIM cdp. He said a different CDP, such as Arcam or Linn, would not guarantee correct earthing, and most likely wouldn't.
How do people without Naim CDPs earth their kit? What if no TT?
I couldn't even get an answer about what kind of TT, or way of hooking it up, would correctly earth my kit.
In any event. I have described the "noise" in several threads in the past.
This summation is the following:
The "noise" is a high pitched hiss/buzz. Almost oscillating in nature.
The noise is ONLY occurring when:
- there is no signal being fed to the DAC.
- the DAC is off.
- I change the input of front to something other than what is connected in the back.
The following is from an email from Stanley Beresford to myself concerning "noise" i am getting from his DAC. I think this is the issue. By the way, only a few of my friends can even hear the "noise". Most cannot hear it. A local hifi dealer certainly couldn't hear anything. So it might be present in all B-ford DACs and its just people hearing threshol dis not the same as mine.
"I have no doubt that the cable could be working without any problem on other equipment. Most manufacturers use just one earthing point so save cost and complexity in the design, even though it is not the recommended way. But that's a different issue. At the end of the day the cable wiring is not suitable for separate Left and Right GROUND, which is causing problems for you when you wire my DAC to your NAIM. The standard modern day wiring is RCA, and I have no idea why NAIM doesn't follow industry wiring practice.
Anyhow, as I said, if you can't wire in the DAC to your NAIM with separate left and right signal earthing on the connection cable, then you won't be able to use the DAC on it.
Have you asked on the NAIM forum what type of wiring the other guys use? Perhaps they have a different model NAIM to you?
The common ground comment is nonsense. Most pre's are common grounded at their inputs whethet RCA or not. Sounds to me as though the Beresford or your interface may be the problem. Disconnect from the pre and test it with headphones and the volume up. Same noise will tell you what the problem is. The Dac has some thermal noise but nothiing approaching enough to crosstalk an open input if things are working correctly. It could be the fixed output op amp so you should also just connect it to anything else and see what happens. The unit is never really off. The outputs are always live. Unless you've got some unbelievably efficient speakers it's the DAC. Grounding shouldn't fix this.
You can run a ground from the phono ground screw to the wall socket cover screw to assure a ground. It should make a difference in sound, either better or worse but I doubt it will solve your problem. In the US the AC return can sometimes serve the purpose if the power cord is phased correctly depending on the internal configuration of the input device.
What you get with other pre's is that they ignore ground potential in system. Naim cares and makes sure that things will be optimized with their systems. If you go elsewhere, you're kind of on your own as they can't be responsable but the situation is never worse than with another brand pre which will or will not have it's own ground. You can still end up with none or more than one. One is always the best setup but you wont be concerned about it elsewhere because it hasn't been mentioned. Honestly, it's possible to have a ground that starts at you computer gets carried along the USB to the usb card through a coax, again through the Beresford and serve it's function for the system. This is why no one can be definitive of configuration outside the system. I'm just happy that they at least address it when no one else seems willing to deal with it. Depending on how anal you are and resolved your setup is, you may only want one input connected on any preamp regardless of make
Posted on: 19 January 2009 by Wazza69
quote:
Originally posted by js:
How long did you have it when you started the 'few weeks later' thread?
I cant remember, I had the Lavry for about a month to six week in all.
Wayne
Posted on: 19 January 2009 by badlyread
Running a Beresford between my SB3 (wireless iMac) and Nait 2 to Neat Motive 2s. Well I was until yesterday when I replaced it with a CA DacMagic! A good improvement. Still pace and punch but richer and more depth. Fantastic buy. Well constructed. Puts the Beresford to shame in that department.
Neil
Posted on: 19 January 2009 by Wazza69
quote:
Originally posted by munch:
Its so good when your ears tell you what to do.
Dont you think?
Do you still have the kit in your Profile?
Sorry, I havent updated the profile as I have moved away from Naim. I now have a Exposure XXI pre with a IV power amp from the Farlowe era into Ruark Talisman 2's. Really fantastic, IMHO the amps areat least as good as a 202/200 with a slightly warmer sound. I do love the Naim CD Players though so am hoping for a Naim DAC to add to the front end.
Posted on: 23 January 2009 by ChrisBathory
quote:
Originally posted by js:
It looks like there's an additional supply filter inboard of the 12v input. Large cap and diode, maybe a zener so unless you bypass that the difference may not be very significant anyway. The issue is determining when is it no longer cost effective.
I'd replace the output coupling caps with tants of at least 10v rating as I believe there's over 6 VDC to block. Only the 220mf ones near the outputs for fixed output. Vaiable and headphone outs can't be made as good but still improved with similar bits in a few more places. This isn't brain surgery. You'll probably have to parallel a few to get value but I really didn't check what's value Tants are readily available. No gaurantees as parts do sound different even if they measure the same. Combos can be intersting.
I've done these things (and slightly more)to an $80 Beresford equivilent that was on sale from MCM in the states. Fiddled about for few hours with bits I had laying around. Don't know what others have done but I suspect most revelations on the Beresford are related to coupling caps. It's a neat toy for what it costs as I'll just move it to the TV or something when I'm done with it. While it's no SN and the results not earth shattering, I've 'cheated' the sound to be acceptable enough to play around with until I can find a DAC that I actually desire. I've heard most of the mid priced DACs and some were also acceptable but didn't offer enough FOR ME either so I cheaped out just to be able to experiment at home. I'm a tweek anyway so I thought I'd take a look. Stock, it was a bit fuzzy, anemic and lacked some solidity but come on, it was $80 US shipped and lots better than the DAC in my cable box even if I had left it alone.
PC, try polarity on the AC adapter.
Hi Mr js,
I'm a Beresford owner (CD2/52/supercap/250/SBL) using a SB3 to wirelessly access EAC-ripped wavs on my computer. I have added linear supplies to both the SB3 and the Beresford. I was quite pleased with it at first, but as the CD2 does outperform it I've ended up rarely listening to it.
Anyhow as a keen experimenter (but one who won't touch Naim boxes) I was very interested by your 'hot-rodding' nods to the DAC - I've replaced the supply diode with a link (subtle improvement I think) and am now eyeing the output caps. I noted that the official MOD21 upgrade suggests 47UF 25V electrolytics, but I wondered what tants you are using there? - and if there were other things you might suggest?
Cheers!
Chris
