NAC552 in HI-FI+
Posted by: Simon Matthews on 03 September 2002
Very nice 11 page review in sep/oct hifi+.
Three opinions based upon use within different systems:
P Messenger after parting company- "I'll still be enjoying my hifi, but it won't be quite the same after sampling what the 552 can do, especially when playing vinyl"
Chris Thomas - "This is, I believe, the best product that naim have ever made"
Roy Gregory - "It is by some margin naim's most capable and impressive product to date"
Nice......
Three opinions based upon use within different systems:
P Messenger after parting company- "I'll still be enjoying my hifi, but it won't be quite the same after sampling what the 552 can do, especially when playing vinyl"
Chris Thomas - "This is, I believe, the best product that naim have ever made"
Roy Gregory - "It is by some margin naim's most capable and impressive product to date"
Nice......
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Mick P
Belsiezepark
I am having great difficulty in seeing just where you are coming from.
I have admitted in the past that I have not spent much time in dealers demming various makes.
I like the Naim sound and enjoy it so why should I not buy it. The cost does not deter me.
I have heard Arcam, Krell and Mark Levinson in friends houses and I prefer mine.
Why should I apologise for that.
I have also listened to the 500 and 552 and to me it is worth the money.
To be frank, I could spend £23,000 on both of those items or do as My wife wants me to do and buy a Morgan sports car (second hand)for around £25,000.
Such are the joys of marriage.
You should be concentrating on what you want rather than what I want.
Regards
Mick
I am having great difficulty in seeing just where you are coming from.
I have admitted in the past that I have not spent much time in dealers demming various makes.
I like the Naim sound and enjoy it so why should I not buy it. The cost does not deter me.
I have heard Arcam, Krell and Mark Levinson in friends houses and I prefer mine.
Why should I apologise for that.
I have also listened to the 500 and 552 and to me it is worth the money.
To be frank, I could spend £23,000 on both of those items or do as My wife wants me to do and buy a Morgan sports car (second hand)for around £25,000.
Such are the joys of marriage.
You should be concentrating on what you want rather than what I want.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Rico
quote:
The Nap 500 is very poor value when compared with the ATC Active 100s which are internationally acknowledged definitive reference monitors.
Err, shouldn't you be comparing apples with apples, James? The ATC's you mention are loudspeakers, with some 'bonus' amplifiers installed. The NAP500, on the other hand, is a power maplifier. One won't get a lot of music without suitable transducers on the end of a NAP500.
I feel your argument is similar to discussing the merits of a Range Rover vs a Porsche boxter's motor and drivetrain. Apart from their obviously different design and market criteria, comparison of the two is clouded by not being able to separate the drivetrain of the Range Rover from its body - never mind the clearly different market parameters each product is designed to meet.
To address your "but the studios use them" - they also largely use Yamaha NS10's. I rest my case.
Well said, Doug. Pleased to see all at Naim are able to feed their families while pushing out kit that is in such high demand (that there is a strong used market) even when owners circumstances change. Keep up the good work!
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Greg Beatty
"There are many stocks that I would not purchase at current prices, however if ceteris paribus, the price dropped 20%, I may well purchase. That decision has been arrived out by comparing the price to various factors about the fundmanetals of the company in question and also its global competitors."
Yes - and for many customers, Naim has outstanding fundamentals: consistently good sound across the product range (can't think of a bad sounding product from Naim), outstanding build quality, insanely good repair and customer service - just to name a few. They also have a pricing history of not goughing for their products.
So you can be assured that the new products will perform and be fairly priced.
Remember, we are not talking about prices that fluctuate over short timespans, like stocks.
Also, "value for money" implies a subjective referent that could be different for everyone: components at the same price (is it better than the competition?), lower cost components (is it "better enough" that the cheaper stuff to justify the higher price to me?), how much enjoyment one gets out of music (no value for me, I watch TV), etc. The whole discussion is quite a mess really.
- Greg
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Yes - and for many customers, Naim has outstanding fundamentals: consistently good sound across the product range (can't think of a bad sounding product from Naim), outstanding build quality, insanely good repair and customer service - just to name a few. They also have a pricing history of not goughing for their products.
So you can be assured that the new products will perform and be fairly priced.
Remember, we are not talking about prices that fluctuate over short timespans, like stocks.
Also, "value for money" implies a subjective referent that could be different for everyone: components at the same price (is it better than the competition?), lower cost components (is it "better enough" that the cheaper stuff to justify the higher price to me?), how much enjoyment one gets out of music (no value for me, I watch TV), etc. The whole discussion is quite a mess really.
- Greg
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by bec143
Greg,
I must disagree with the idea that the going price for second hand equipment is intrinsically stable. On Audiogon, for example, the going price for itens I have purchased or thought of has plummeted considerably recently. For example, a 112/150 used to be hard to find under $2000, now they are readily available at $1500 almost weekly. CD5's have similarly dropped from $1800 to near $1500, and $700 Hicaps are plentiful. If I had waited 6 months to but my equipment, I probably would have saved over $1000 (nearly 20%). I bet things will drop even further when the new series 5 stuff comes out.
Now, I don't particulalry care about this, but I think that the VFM of any item in an uncertain economy is always changing, particularly luxury items.
Bruce
I must disagree with the idea that the going price for second hand equipment is intrinsically stable. On Audiogon, for example, the going price for itens I have purchased or thought of has plummeted considerably recently. For example, a 112/150 used to be hard to find under $2000, now they are readily available at $1500 almost weekly. CD5's have similarly dropped from $1800 to near $1500, and $700 Hicaps are plentiful. If I had waited 6 months to but my equipment, I probably would have saved over $1000 (nearly 20%). I bet things will drop even further when the new series 5 stuff comes out.
Now, I don't particulalry care about this, but I think that the VFM of any item in an uncertain economy is always changing, particularly luxury items.
Bruce
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Tuan
I beleive that the NAP500 is very well built and the sound will have the Naim signature. It is a very well engineered product. I did not have a chance to listen to it but based on the reputation of Naim Audio and feed back from people like David Antonelli, I will beleive it. Speaking about the price, it is a manufacturer decision to price their products and the market will show whether the price is right. If Naim Audio values the NAP500 to high, they will not be able to sell it well. I do respect Naim Audio decision on their pricing and it is up to me (as the consumer) to decide. If the price is outrageous, the product will not be a successful investment for Naim Audio.
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by bec143:
Greg,
I must disagree with the idea that the going price for second hand equipment is intrinsically stable. On Audiogon, for example, the going price for itens I have purchased or thought of has plummeted considerably recently. For example, a 112/150 used to be hard to find under $2000, now they are readily available at $1500 almost weekly. CD5's have similarly dropped from $1800 to near $1500, and $700 Hicaps are plentiful. If I had waited 6 months to but my equipment, I probably would have saved over $1000 (nearly 20%). I bet things will drop even further when the new series 5 stuff comes out.
Bruce,
the price of nearly-new kit seems to be disproportionally affected by age.
When the 112/150 has only been out for three months, you can only buy a three-month-old example.
Are you sure you're comparing items of similar age?
Of course, there is also a shortage of s/h items of any new range. I think I bought the first magazine-advertised s/h 52 in the UK, and competition was fierce. I only got it because I wanted the guy's 135s, too.
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Philip Pang
Dear Chaps
I have been away from the Forum for a while; it's good to see the views pouring forth and that we can still have lively debates on our differences in opinion.
We are all entitled to our own opinions.
We have each our own value systems;
we think, feel and hear differently;
we each decide for ourselves what we like and don't, what we can and should buy, and what we can't.
Underlying all these differences is our interest in musical enjoyment. If Naim equipment at whatever price points does not make listening for you tick, then buy something else, anything else, that catches your hearing fancy, and be happy with it, because you'll be the one living with the system you purchased. We all have that right, we do as we please, and we respect each other for this.
But this is a Naim Forum. If the 500 does things for you, buy if you can afford it. Otherwise save and aspire to own it, or be happy with what you have, or get something else. It's a personal call. But it is a reference product from Naim, and we ought to respect it for the sheer amount of work that's been put into designing and building it, as we would for the best products put forth by all other equipment makes. Whether we want to or can buy it is something else. But no need to slag the product off. Serves nothing. I find it strange that funny baseless comments on the 500's merits, or on how it doesn't measure up sonically pound for pound, with other audio makes can be made, especially when one's not heard it.
If you have nothing constructive, especially in your critique, save it for yourself.
"The NAP500 is the best value-for-money power amp in the world I have heard in the past 10 years I've been listening to hifi."
That's a fact for me.
Go on now, I am sure I've stated yet another hotly debatable statement: let the unconstructive
comments spew.
Good listening all, the music's still groovin'.
Philip Pang
naimniac for life
I have been away from the Forum for a while; it's good to see the views pouring forth and that we can still have lively debates on our differences in opinion.
We are all entitled to our own opinions.
We have each our own value systems;
we think, feel and hear differently;
we each decide for ourselves what we like and don't, what we can and should buy, and what we can't.
Underlying all these differences is our interest in musical enjoyment. If Naim equipment at whatever price points does not make listening for you tick, then buy something else, anything else, that catches your hearing fancy, and be happy with it, because you'll be the one living with the system you purchased. We all have that right, we do as we please, and we respect each other for this.
But this is a Naim Forum. If the 500 does things for you, buy if you can afford it. Otherwise save and aspire to own it, or be happy with what you have, or get something else. It's a personal call. But it is a reference product from Naim, and we ought to respect it for the sheer amount of work that's been put into designing and building it, as we would for the best products put forth by all other equipment makes. Whether we want to or can buy it is something else. But no need to slag the product off. Serves nothing. I find it strange that funny baseless comments on the 500's merits, or on how it doesn't measure up sonically pound for pound, with other audio makes can be made, especially when one's not heard it.
If you have nothing constructive, especially in your critique, save it for yourself.
"The NAP500 is the best value-for-money power amp in the world I have heard in the past 10 years I've been listening to hifi."
That's a fact for me.
Go on now, I am sure I've stated yet another hotly debatable statement: let the unconstructive
comments spew.
Good listening all, the music's still groovin'.
Philip Pang
naimniac for life
Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Jonathan Gorse
I fully endorse Greg's point that value for money is hard to measure. In my view the only real way of judging value for money is 'utility' ie if a NAP500 costs £10000 am I getting £10000 worth of pleasure out of it? Is that pleasure greater than I could gain from alternatives?
I could spend that £10000 on great wine. watches, cameras or even 'ladies of the night'. In a sense then the 500 or 552 isn't necessarily competing against just ATC or Chord but a huge range of alternative choices.
Shares are an interesting exception though - I have no interest in them because they give me no pleasure whatsoever. They have no useful purpose except anticipation of future gains. Having invested, the shareholder is condemmed to spending hours of their leisure time reading Ceefax and boring market appraisals in financial journals or labouring through worthy but tedious statements in annual reports about corporate governance written by pompous old farts in pinstripe suits. Then there's all the stress of wondering if some completely unpredictable event is going to wipe out the investment, the company or the auditors!
Personally I'd rather take the TVR/Morgan/MG etc etc for a spin before returning to listen to some great music on the Naim over a bottle of good Claret.
Shares - why do people do it???
Jonathan
I could spend that £10000 on great wine. watches, cameras or even 'ladies of the night'. In a sense then the 500 or 552 isn't necessarily competing against just ATC or Chord but a huge range of alternative choices.
Shares are an interesting exception though - I have no interest in them because they give me no pleasure whatsoever. They have no useful purpose except anticipation of future gains. Having invested, the shareholder is condemmed to spending hours of their leisure time reading Ceefax and boring market appraisals in financial journals or labouring through worthy but tedious statements in annual reports about corporate governance written by pompous old farts in pinstripe suits. Then there's all the stress of wondering if some completely unpredictable event is going to wipe out the investment, the company or the auditors!
Personally I'd rather take the TVR/Morgan/MG etc etc for a spin before returning to listen to some great music on the Naim over a bottle of good Claret.
Shares - why do people do it???
Jonathan
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by belsizepark
Greg said
"Naim has outstanding fundamentals: consistently good sound across the product range (can't think of a bad sounding product from Naim), outstanding build quality, insanely good repair and customer service - just to name a few"
This is a reason to purchase a product, not an argument about value for money.
Tuan makes a very fair point about the market price. This is quite standard basic economics.
Liking a product and preferring to purchase a 552/500 combo as opposed to a car are also not value for money arguments, it is a preference argument.
I accept fully that value for money is subjective. What some people view as cheap, others view as expensive.
I have mentioned on a previous post that i have a penchant for purchasing Hermes neck ties at about £70 a tie. I really like them, however I do not think they are value for money. A Ferragamo tie of a very close quality can be purchased at about £40 at Heathrow airport. I like Hermes ties so I buy them. It is a fair thing to do. People here may like Naim products and therefore buy them in the same way.. But plllleeeaazzzzzeeee... Do not confuse liking something with an opinion about value for money.
The point is that Mick has not created any argument about why he considers the 500 value for money. He states he has heard it and I am sure it is the best amp he has ever heard. That is also not a value for money argument, which is the point I am making. If the product was £25,000 retail as opposed to less than 1/2 that would he also consider it value for money?
You can make the same argument about build quality, customer service, amazing sound, the backup, reliability etc etc etc.. none of that is a comment about the value for money of the product in question..
I find this blind loyalty to a manufacturer almost laughable.
There is a customer born every minute...
Regards
Belsizepark
"Naim has outstanding fundamentals: consistently good sound across the product range (can't think of a bad sounding product from Naim), outstanding build quality, insanely good repair and customer service - just to name a few"
This is a reason to purchase a product, not an argument about value for money.
Tuan makes a very fair point about the market price. This is quite standard basic economics.
Liking a product and preferring to purchase a 552/500 combo as opposed to a car are also not value for money arguments, it is a preference argument.
I accept fully that value for money is subjective. What some people view as cheap, others view as expensive.
I have mentioned on a previous post that i have a penchant for purchasing Hermes neck ties at about £70 a tie. I really like them, however I do not think they are value for money. A Ferragamo tie of a very close quality can be purchased at about £40 at Heathrow airport. I like Hermes ties so I buy them. It is a fair thing to do. People here may like Naim products and therefore buy them in the same way.. But plllleeeaazzzzzeeee... Do not confuse liking something with an opinion about value for money.
The point is that Mick has not created any argument about why he considers the 500 value for money. He states he has heard it and I am sure it is the best amp he has ever heard. That is also not a value for money argument, which is the point I am making. If the product was £25,000 retail as opposed to less than 1/2 that would he also consider it value for money?
You can make the same argument about build quality, customer service, amazing sound, the backup, reliability etc etc etc.. none of that is a comment about the value for money of the product in question..
I find this blind loyalty to a manufacturer almost laughable.
There is a customer born every minute...
Regards
Belsizepark
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by MarkEJ
quote:
Originally posted by Paul D:
Hey Doug,
[snip]
He's also bought all his Mana brand new which is something of a first.
Paul Duerden
Paul, that's a vicious insinuation. I'm quite certain Doug bought all his Mana brand new also. I really think you should apologise...
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Philip Pang
>> "You can make the same argument about build quality, customer service, amazing sound, the backup, reliability etc etc etc.. none of that is a comment about the value for money of the product in question.." Belsizepark
Belsizepark, that's subjective. I differ here : it's precisely these other aspects with Naim purchases, besides their consistency and indifference to introducing fly-by-year-in-the-name-of-technology-improvement" products, that augurs exceptionally well for their "value-for-money" aspect. I think our decision to buy something is almost always based on the sum of a few added parts, much more than just any one particular aspect... especially the pound for pound "music vs money value" ratio.
Mick, you needn't explain your stand on why you love Naim products; most of us here do, for the same reasons...and I think we share your enthusiasm. Glad you're enjoying the music!
Good listening all, the music's still groovin'.
Philip Pang
naimniac for life
Belsizepark, that's subjective. I differ here : it's precisely these other aspects with Naim purchases, besides their consistency and indifference to introducing fly-by-year-in-the-name-of-technology-improvement" products, that augurs exceptionally well for their "value-for-money" aspect. I think our decision to buy something is almost always based on the sum of a few added parts, much more than just any one particular aspect... especially the pound for pound "music vs money value" ratio.
Mick, you needn't explain your stand on why you love Naim products; most of us here do, for the same reasons...and I think we share your enthusiasm. Glad you're enjoying the music!
Good listening all, the music's still groovin'.
Philip Pang
naimniac for life
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by belsizepark
A product with excellent build quality, customer service, etc etc is not a value for money statement.
Because that statement does not justify the price at any level be it £5,000, £10,000 or £25,000.
All of those contributing factors may be why you want something, and why you like it but none of them are value for money arguments.
value for money is subjective but at least make a subjective view..
For example...
The build quality of the 500 is better, comparable or worse for these reasons than product xyz that retails at £q
The customer service that you get with Naim is better or comparable or worse for these reasons than qwerty manufacturer that makes products zxcvb that retail at similar prices and target a similar market..
The sound of the nap 500 is better/comparable/worse than lkjhg which retails at £b
The list of course goes on...
I am not saying I expect people to list all the reasons here.. but people should not make blase statements about "value for money" if they can not even give a subjective back up reason for that opinion.
Regards
Belsizepark
Because that statement does not justify the price at any level be it £5,000, £10,000 or £25,000.
All of those contributing factors may be why you want something, and why you like it but none of them are value for money arguments.
value for money is subjective but at least make a subjective view..
For example...
The build quality of the 500 is better, comparable or worse for these reasons than product xyz that retails at £q
The customer service that you get with Naim is better or comparable or worse for these reasons than qwerty manufacturer that makes products zxcvb that retail at similar prices and target a similar market..
The sound of the nap 500 is better/comparable/worse than lkjhg which retails at £b
The list of course goes on...
I am not saying I expect people to list all the reasons here.. but people should not make blase statements about "value for money" if they can not even give a subjective back up reason for that opinion.
Regards
Belsizepark
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Noel
James, I'm curious, how hot do your speakers get? If they're class'A' with 3 amps per side (@ 200w each?) does that produce 600w of heat per channel? The various class 'A' amps I've used all produce a lot of heat, both transistor and tube.
I've heard the NAP500 with Allaes, NBL and DBL speakers and IMHO its an awesome amp. I think Naim can finally take on Krell etc on their own terms. The 500 does all the usual Naim stuff, but it does the round earth bits as well. Its the least 'Naim' sounding power amp they've made. I think my 250 is excellent, but I shall keep doing the lottery!
I've heard the NAP500 with Allaes, NBL and DBL speakers and IMHO its an awesome amp. I think Naim can finally take on Krell etc on their own terms. The 500 does all the usual Naim stuff, but it does the round earth bits as well. Its the least 'Naim' sounding power amp they've made. I think my 250 is excellent, but I shall keep doing the lottery!
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by MarkEJ
...particularly as I've always thought that ATC supply the bass driver for the DBL -- could be wrong here. Personally I've never heard any ATC loudspeakers, and I'm quite prepared to believe that fabulous results can be obtained with them. However;
1. The amp packs used within their speaker boxes are surely designed and optimised to work directly connected to a given set of drive units mounted in a given cabinet, with a given length of a particular cable. This narrows their operational parameters quite a lot (reducing the cost enormously), which should allow them to excel at this particular task. The NAP 500 on the other hand, was designed to drive "any available loudspeaker" (if I remember JV's words correctly). On the face of it therefore, the ATCs offer good VFM, and if you can live with them probably represent one of those happy combinations with Naim upstream which works well. On the other hand, I seem to remember comments about ATCs on the old forum along the lines of "treble sweet and loud, bass to die for, no music" so to some, it's not entirely straightforward.
2. The pro-audio market into which ATC traditionally sell hates paying much money for amplification, which it regards as pretty unimportant as long as it doesn't either distort or blow up. Big monitors are entirely different -- ISTM that ATC's marketing and positioning of their products in that market takes this into account. Personally, reading that item X is used in recording studios would make me very cautious of it, as judging by their output, they often seem to have an entirely different set of priorities to my own.
3. Specifications are irrelevant, IMHO. Leak proved that with the Stereo Thirty Plus, and Naim did it again with the Nait 1. In musical terms, something will either work or not, irrespective of the marketing bollocks. Suggested translations:
"350 watts" =
"we wish to appeal to the American market, but would like to assure all potential customers that ownership of the product wil enlarge your genitals"
"Tri-amp pack" =
"although all this is built into the box, and is therefore not visible, ownership of the prouduct will nevertheless encourage the growth of two additional sets of genitalia"
"Professional users..." =
"time spent listening to our products is paid time spent sitting down -- make sure your underwear fits well"
"Class A" = "We also sell air conditioning systems. You will need this in the future when (1) our equipment, (2) you and (3) your genitals are all in the control room together. This is known as the 'WoodMan Effect™'.
YPMV, obviously...
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
1. The amp packs used within their speaker boxes are surely designed and optimised to work directly connected to a given set of drive units mounted in a given cabinet, with a given length of a particular cable. This narrows their operational parameters quite a lot (reducing the cost enormously), which should allow them to excel at this particular task. The NAP 500 on the other hand, was designed to drive "any available loudspeaker" (if I remember JV's words correctly). On the face of it therefore, the ATCs offer good VFM, and if you can live with them probably represent one of those happy combinations with Naim upstream which works well. On the other hand, I seem to remember comments about ATCs on the old forum along the lines of "treble sweet and loud, bass to die for, no music" so to some, it's not entirely straightforward.
2. The pro-audio market into which ATC traditionally sell hates paying much money for amplification, which it regards as pretty unimportant as long as it doesn't either distort or blow up. Big monitors are entirely different -- ISTM that ATC's marketing and positioning of their products in that market takes this into account. Personally, reading that item X is used in recording studios would make me very cautious of it, as judging by their output, they often seem to have an entirely different set of priorities to my own.
3. Specifications are irrelevant, IMHO. Leak proved that with the Stereo Thirty Plus, and Naim did it again with the Nait 1. In musical terms, something will either work or not, irrespective of the marketing bollocks. Suggested translations:
"350 watts" =
"we wish to appeal to the American market, but would like to assure all potential customers that ownership of the product wil enlarge your genitals"
"Tri-amp pack" =
"although all this is built into the box, and is therefore not visible, ownership of the prouduct will nevertheless encourage the growth of two additional sets of genitalia"
"Professional users..." =
"time spent listening to our products is paid time spent sitting down -- make sure your underwear fits well"
"Class A" = "We also sell air conditioning systems. You will need this in the future when (1) our equipment, (2) you and (3) your genitals are all in the control room together. This is known as the 'WoodMan Effect™'.
YPMV, obviously...
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Doug Graham
James, two things. Firstly, I don't have a family.
Secondly, you don't seem to be acting in a friendly manner when you reply to some post. For instance you referred to a Simon Mathews as "you again" should we do the same when replying to your posts?
It's seems that you don't agree with the majority of contributors to this thread so maybe it's time to rearrange this phrase. A Horse dead flogging.
I respect your choice of equipment. It represents good VFM for you. We understand this.
Have you tried (tied) Paul Smith ties?
Doug
Secondly, you don't seem to be acting in a friendly manner when you reply to some post. For instance you referred to a Simon Mathews as "you again" should we do the same when replying to your posts?
It's seems that you don't agree with the majority of contributors to this thread so maybe it's time to rearrange this phrase. A Horse dead flogging.
I respect your choice of equipment. It represents good VFM for you. We understand this.
Have you tried (tied) Paul Smith ties?
Doug
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Alex S.
Me again.
I thought we were discussing Naim's new line only preamp at 12K. This makes the NAP500 seriously good value for money.
One gist of the HF+ 'review' was that Naim have finally entered the hi-end with the 552 - the 500 they argue should cost at least 30K to be taken seriously by large, multi-genitalled stateside enthusiasts.
Is this true?
Alex
I thought we were discussing Naim's new line only preamp at 12K. This makes the NAP500 seriously good value for money.
One gist of the HF+ 'review' was that Naim have finally entered the hi-end with the 552 - the 500 they argue should cost at least 30K to be taken seriously by large, multi-genitalled stateside enthusiasts.
Is this true?
Alex
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Martin M
quote:
Noel, 'how hot', well they are very warm at idle, and if you give them some stick, the cooling fins get hot enough to fry eggs on.
James, being really pedantic (and off course on this thread), this would suggest that they are not Class A. The Heatsinks would stay at the same temperature or cool down when the amplifier is being thrashed (but not heat up), as more of the quiescent current is being converted to sound and not heat. But overall, who cares, you obviously REALLY enjoy the ATCs, and there is absolutely no need to justify this in terms of VFM, Neneh Cherry using them etc. You love them. Nothing else matters.
Anyway, being in a diplomatic mood, I'm just happy that I have choice of several fantastic amplifiers(NAC 552, NAP 500, Stealths etc etc) and the luxurious position to even contemplate buying them. Or may be not. I might buy a car instead. Or food. After all it's only hi-fi.
IMO The great thing about Naim and companies like Mana, is that they are driven by personalities who fundamentally really like music, and really like to have happy customers. This is obvious in the products they make and the level of service they deliver. I am happy to buy from companies like that. Also, if I want to pay the entrance price for a 552 or 500 or Mana that's my business and no one elses (except my wife's). Personally, I don't think VFM is a criteria that can be applied to a luxury product like a hi-fi. How the hell do measure 'value'? Its a subjective and so personal measure. In my case music is an itch I have to scratch and so I'll buy the appropriate 'ointment' for my musical ailment - in my case this means the IMO totally superb DBL.
[This message was edited by Martin M on FRIDAY 06 September 2002 at 14:30.]
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Greg Beatty
OK - its Friday, I'm performing all weekend at the Maryland Renaissance Festival, the weather outside is incredible...
I'm feeling good
Just thought of a funny one for James.
Jemes: Swap out your 52 for a 112 and tell everyone its a Nait 5. Then turn up the wick
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
I'm feeling good
Just thought of a funny one for James.
Jemes: Swap out your 52 for a 112 and tell everyone its a Nait 5. Then turn up the wick
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Martin M
quote:
Out of curiosity, is the DBL Bass driver supplied by ATC?
Yes it is. A big, brutal, heavy, 15 inch one (oo eer!). The quality (and what I perceive as fidelity to reality) of the bass is stunning.
quote:
I am a long-term satisfied Naim user, and a short-term satisfied Mana user.
Me too actually.....
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Martin M
quote:
Maryland Renaissance Festival
Where is this taking place? I might swing by.
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Philip Pang
Belsizepark, I understand where you are coming from. It's true in the strictest sense that these factors are not "value-for-money" statements. But I guess our perceptions of VFM differ completely.
For me, when combined, these factors influence and contribute to my view of Naim equipment on the whole, and as a result, relative to what I could get elsewhere for the sonic requirements I need, I find that they represent value-for-money, and that's what counts for me, and perhaps, for most of us.
On the other hand, you could perhaps buy a 252/300 combination and still have change over from a 552/500 purchase, and perhaps get 85-90% (just figures plucked from the air - who knows??? but should be about there, yes?) of the performance, which would definitely in that sense represent better perceived VFM stakes on a price-performance ratio. But if we took this further, someone could well be extremely happy with the wonderful Nait 5/CD5/Intro system, and say that a 252/300 doesn't represent good VFM. It's all contextual to the buyer.
So it's all relative to you, your perceptions and what works at an acceptable level to make you happy when you're listening to the music.
We may have differing perceptions on VFM, but we love our Naims, man... and the music that emanates from them! And that's what counts.
One day, I'll rob that bank and get a 552/500 combo - and I know you're just going to cringe at this : they represent excellent value-for-money components for what they do for me at a personal level when compared to what the rest of the playing field has to offer.:D
Happy listening, the music's still groovin'.
Philip Pang
naimniac for life
For me, when combined, these factors influence and contribute to my view of Naim equipment on the whole, and as a result, relative to what I could get elsewhere for the sonic requirements I need, I find that they represent value-for-money, and that's what counts for me, and perhaps, for most of us.
On the other hand, you could perhaps buy a 252/300 combination and still have change over from a 552/500 purchase, and perhaps get 85-90% (just figures plucked from the air - who knows??? but should be about there, yes?) of the performance, which would definitely in that sense represent better perceived VFM stakes on a price-performance ratio. But if we took this further, someone could well be extremely happy with the wonderful Nait 5/CD5/Intro system, and say that a 252/300 doesn't represent good VFM. It's all contextual to the buyer.
So it's all relative to you, your perceptions and what works at an acceptable level to make you happy when you're listening to the music.
We may have differing perceptions on VFM, but we love our Naims, man... and the music that emanates from them! And that's what counts.
One day, I'll rob that bank and get a 552/500 combo - and I know you're just going to cringe at this : they represent excellent value-for-money components for what they do for me at a personal level when compared to what the rest of the playing field has to offer.:D
Happy listening, the music's still groovin'.
Philip Pang
naimniac for life
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by garyi
Its pointless looking at purchases of this nature in terms of value for money. Its a luxury item.
99% of the music listening world would bulk at a £1000 amp let alone anything else.
Face it, its a hobby we like spending money on it, its pride of ownership.
The question would therefore be do you have pride in your kit? Can you put a price on that?
99% of the music listening world would bulk at a £1000 amp let alone anything else.
Face it, its a hobby we like spending money on it, its pride of ownership.
The question would therefore be do you have pride in your kit? Can you put a price on that?
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Martin M
12 inches is still very impressive.
Yes, it's kind of heavy physically. Massive Attack's Mezzanine is somewhat intense sonically...
When I moved to the US, the moving company where mildly bemused by the quarter of a tonne weight and huge size allocated to a pair of loudspeakers. Their bemusement became rather more intense when the arrived at Salisbury where Naim kindly had the speakers packed and ready to go at their factory (heh, customer service in action!), and then preceeded to load the speakers onto the truck with a forklift truck. Their van had a pronounced tilt toward the back. DBLs come complete with a free cabaret....
Dunno. IMO they are fantastically enjoyable speakers though.
Although, a double isobarik loaded bass system (using 3 x 15" ATCs in a isobarik configuration per cabinet) would probably termed a 'weapon of mass destruction' in most dictionaries.
[This message was edited by Martin M on FRIDAY 06 September 2002 at 15:17.]
quote:
Judging from the weight of the midrange unit (around 3.5 kg) that was nonchalently handed to me by a dealer once upon a time, the 15 inch ATC bass driver must be some beast!
Yes, it's kind of heavy physically. Massive Attack's Mezzanine is somewhat intense sonically...
When I moved to the US, the moving company where mildly bemused by the quarter of a tonne weight and huge size allocated to a pair of loudspeakers. Their bemusement became rather more intense when the arrived at Salisbury where Naim kindly had the speakers packed and ready to go at their factory (heh, customer service in action!), and then preceeded to load the speakers onto the truck with a forklift truck. Their van had a pronounced tilt toward the back. DBLs come complete with a free cabaret....
quote:
Would the DBLs sound better if they used three ATC drivers per speaker rather than just the one?
Dunno. IMO they are fantastically enjoyable speakers though.
Although, a double isobarik loaded bass system (using 3 x 15" ATCs in a isobarik configuration per cabinet) would probably termed a 'weapon of mass destruction' in most dictionaries.
[This message was edited by Martin M on FRIDAY 06 September 2002 at 15:17.]
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by Mick P
Just to make it perfectly clear to you.
I consider a Nap 500/NAC552 good value at a collective price of £23,000. To me it is better value than a second hand Morgan sports car. You may find the Morgan better value, but for me it is the Hifi.
Now if the price went up to £50,000, I would buy the Morgan.
Is that clear enough for you or do you need a more detailed explanation.
Regards
Mick
I consider a Nap 500/NAC552 good value at a collective price of £23,000. To me it is better value than a second hand Morgan sports car. You may find the Morgan better value, but for me it is the Hifi.
Now if the price went up to £50,000, I would buy the Morgan.
Is that clear enough for you or do you need a more detailed explanation.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 06 September 2002 by David Dever
...are you sure that all three channel bands in an SCM100ASL are Class A? (I'm not sure that this is entirely correct, based on the ATC white papers describing their amplifier topology...)
I should also point out that the bigger models in the ATC range use outboard amplifier/crossover boxes--clearly there are limits as to what you can stuff into a speaker cabinet (e.g., regulated power supply PCBs), and as to what amount of heat can be dissipated safely via the rear heat sink, especially when confined in a studio soffit.
A more appropriate comparison would include active SCM150As with the outboard amp packs, all three on Mana stands–and then you're close to DBL + 500 territory again...
I should also point out that the bigger models in the ATC range use outboard amplifier/crossover boxes--clearly there are limits as to what you can stuff into a speaker cabinet (e.g., regulated power supply PCBs), and as to what amount of heat can be dissipated safely via the rear heat sink, especially when confined in a studio soffit.
A more appropriate comparison would include active SCM150As with the outboard amp packs, all three on Mana stands–and then you're close to DBL + 500 territory again...