NAC552 in HI-FI+

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I feel your argument is similar to discussing the merits of a Range Rover vs a Porsche boxter's motor and drivetrain.

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Err, I should expand. That is, the whole of the Range Rover (V8, 4x4, 4 doors, leather, luxury, plays in the mud, city, or M1), and the drivetrain of the Boxster, plus drivetrain. One you can drive around in, won't do you much good on twisty roads that you enjoy driving so much. A professional farmer, however, won't even consider the enormous cost of the boxter drivetrain (NAP500) as it's use (despite great engineering and potential performance when installed in the Boxster body) won't pull his wife's car out of the mud in the farm track up to their country pile (tractors offer much better VFM in his eyes) - and the Rangerover (active professional speaker) fits the bill. Apples with oranges, young man.

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P.S. I'm glad Doug bought his Mana new. Much better that way.

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Why is Mana "better" new? I bought all of the Mana I own, new. Had I bought it used I'd have been able to enjoy it immediately, and saved myself a load of money on phonecalls. Or has your mysterious statement just crashed the "used mana market"?

Martin said:

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Massive Attack's Mezzanine is somewhat intense sonically...

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Sir, your mastery of understatement as regards Massive Attack's Mezzanine is unparalleled!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by Mark Ellis-Jones:
...particularly as I've always thought that ATC supply the bass driver for the DBL -- could be wrong here.

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Mark,

it is considerably reworked by Naim.

From my (shaky) memory, I've heard a comment to the effect that Naim build a driver around the ATC metal chassis.

cheers, Martin

...ATCs are great if they are what you want.

Your post above could easily be rewritten something like:

"I just got a 1,000 watt receiver and a pair of Cerwin Vegas with 22" woofers. Man, this settup ROCKS!!! I can't believe people spend $$$ on hifi when you can get what I got for less than $1,000 USD."

See the difference? Your ATCs are NOT a NAP500 just like the Cerwin Vega/cheapie megaamp setup is not your ATCs. Never will be.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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Sir, your mastery of understatement as regards Massive Attack's Mezzanine is unparalleled!

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Heh, heh...As my Mrs almost always says "Do you have to play that album thatloud?" the answer being yes and mainly because I can.

Well, my mate's very round earth system (unbelievably) made it sound rather mellow, kind of like an Acker Bilk version. Leftfield sounded bass-light. Mmm. Time to sack the $15k round-earth stereo?

There is no way of being tactful about this but I have just seen a pic of the ATC's on the Mana forum.

These speakers must rank as the ugliest abortion ever made by the hand of man.

James, I have no wish to upset you, but bloody hell....what does your missus think of them.

Doug......don't worry...you don't need to lose any sleep over this lot.

Still bloody amazed

Mick

Mick.

Do you feel better about the briks?

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Originally posted by james mcp:
"it [the ATC driver] is considerably reworked by Naim."

In what way, and why?

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James,

I have found the original comment made by Ron Toolsie, in Topic: Pioneer-TAD drivers on DBLs:-

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From what I remember the ATC driver used in the DBL is extensively reworked by Naim, leaving pretty much only the basket and surround in the original state. I believe that JVs impression was that ATC makes great baskets, but not necessarily great drivers.

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An acquaintance of mine with quite a knowledge in these matters has characterised the stock drivers (there are actually four variants) as 'slow'.

cheers, Martin

Read the Hi-Fi+ articles on the 552 last night and thought.....

Oh No!... I don't want to hear it!!!

As the most significant upgrade I ever experienced was the 52 and I love it!!!

For something to be so much better I must hear it but I can't aford it so I better not!

Richard

(But if ever the Sound Org get one then....)

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According to certain members of this forum, apparently the PMC FB1s will shut down a pair of 135s at high volume. The FB1s are not _that_ hard a load, and there are much bigger PMC speakers in their range.

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But I've certainly heard the smaller LB1s (as above; the bass/mid driver is 4.5") do this to 135s. Doesn't seem to be to do with size -- often the bigger speakers in a given range are an easier load.

Martin M:

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IMO The great thing about Naim and companies like Mana, is that they are driven by personalities who fundamentally really like music, and really like to have happy customers. This is obvious in the products they make and the level of service they deliver. I am happy to buy from companies like that.

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Me too. Completely agree.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

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I am not in any way claiming the Bryston is "better" than the NAP 500, indeed I am not making any comparison of sound qualities at all -- simply noting that in certain specific areas the NAP 500 can be bettered.

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Uhhh, yeah, John - we can also judge amplifiers on (say) their ability to heat a room (in which case a Class-A behemoth would undoubtedly best a NAP500 or Bryston), visual appeal (some amp done in off-white leather with rhinestones might indeed win with the judges in a fashion capital), ability to drive 0.5 ohm loads... etc etc etc.

Being that the main criteria is to provide music at the end of the chain (that is, amplified signal to the transducers) - would it not be a little more relevant to simplify the argument? Stick to music?

Leave the professional stuff to people who run PA's or studios, and just judge on Music? After all, if it's delivering the goods musically you're unlikely to listen to a system and remark: "Oh dear, I think they should have increased the voltage rails by 20% - power delivery is really lacking on this peice into my Isobariks!"

Greg wrote:

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"I just got a 1,000 watt receiver and a pair of Cerwin Vegas with 22" woofers. Man, this settup ROCKS!!! I can't believe people spend $$$ on hifi when you can get what I got for less than $1,000 USD."

See the difference? Your ATCs are NOT a NAP500 just like the Cerwin Vega/cheapie megaamp setup is not your ATCs. Never will be.

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Can't get much clearer than that. Nicely put, Greg.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio (we won't party without JBL's, dude)

Guy Batey,

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I've just bought a Nait 2 for £100. What percentage of the sound of the NAP500 have I got for 1% of it's price?

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you got 80% ... i guess it works better in a more "normal" home setup. Think of system synergy. Buying just a NAP500 wouldn't help, you then need all the other expensive toys.

I attended a demo guided by the German distributor at my dealer's place a year ago, system was CD5, 112, 150, Flat2, Intro2. Alternatively they played with NAP500. All on Fraim supports.

The 500 had lots of bass and sheer power, but I did not like it. Too much bass, which was not
integrated well in the music, rather artificial hifi-ish in total. I did get all the bells and tiny details, but not the whole drama. The 150 hat obviously less power, but played the tune, sounded more open in the treble, and made more sense to me - I must admit that I am rather a flat earth guy, naimwise.

After leaving the demo room, other attendants confirmed what I felt. To give the 500 the benefit of doubt, I guess that the Intro2 is just designed to play with power amps in their own price region.

I would be glad there would be Naim demo showing the quality of 552/500 in a GOOD setup.

regards,
Hartmut from Munich/Germany

I thought my 32.5/110 delivered about 97.3% of what an 82/SC/250 could in terms of music.

Do returns diminish quicker in any other field?

Alex

Naim is more musical than Bryston. Both are built using high quality components and both have skilled people. Bryston has 20 years warranty and that speaks for the confidence of their workmanship and pride. Naim and Bryston produce different type of sound. For monitoring purpose I will definetely go with Bryston. I beleive they are more natural (but weaker in the musical department). In Canada Bryston products are priced quite reasonable and if you are after powerful, quick and natural sounding amplifiers you will definitely like Bryston amps especially the 4B SST model. It will drive virtually all Bristish speakers with no sweat (you dont even need the 7 or 14 SST models). There is a reason why PMC and B&W use Bryston (or Classe) to drive their speakers) and also many Audio Recording facilities around the world. However, for low listening level I prefer my Naim setup (and I am a Canadian). Naim are expensive here in Canada. I do not think that the products worth the asking prices (in Canada and you British may feel the same way with Bryston there). However, HiFi components are toys and the manufactures (naim, Bryston etc.)know that too.... and I love my Naim set-up. Cheers.

Hartmut

Congratulations, that must be one of the most unbalanced and meaningless dems ever!

James

Wow this thread took off a bit since I last visited! I don't look for 'run ins' with you every time (honest!!). I own and love a nap500 and cannot help but get wound up by critisism of its performance from people who have actually NOT heard it and at the moment you seem to be flying that flag rather well! This is my beef, pure and simple, no more no less.

And as to the 'premium brand' verses value for money dig I can only respond by saying that I think all of the purchases I have made represent value for money (ultimately a subjective criteria)- with the nap500 FAR FAR FAR from being an exception

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Originally posted by james mcp:
Martin, they are not 'slow'. Everyone who has heard them has been thrilled by their sound quality (I think). Speak up if you found them 'slow', chaps.

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James,

I thought your speakers had a 12" driver, not the 15"?

cheers, Martin

Quote...Mick,
Go on, stick your head in the fire – you’d do it if Naim said so wouldn’t you?

No

Mick

Its good to see you back.

Alex

Quote...Hello Mr Tibbs

Its good to see you back.

So far it isn't.

Regards

Mick

Wholeheartedly thirded - a great pleasure to see you pop your head above the parapet, if only as a big tease.

Regards,

Andy.

...and more Trolls.

Get a life.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

I agree Mr T. - just compare the innards of the 552 to the Gryphon.

I have to say the outside is unimpressive too: Levinson, for example, designed mega-buck kit and then used the same buttons on cheaper stuff; Naim designed the 5 series and then used the same buttons on their 12K preamp!

But these are just trifles - I'm sure the 552 plays far more 'music' than any of the competition.

Alex

One of the best features with Naim equipment is its long life.
So I know that in 10 years from now, when Naim will produce the amazing NAC 582, I'll be able to buy a used 552... (Unless I'll have to pay to more wives...).

Arye

Thought I'd join in.
From my listening it seems to me that the new 552/500 is a departure from the long standing Naim sound typified by the 52/250 (possibly 135, but I'm not so familiar). The new stuff looks and sounds different, it may be better but I don't hear it as an obvious progression up the Naim ladder but more of a sideways step. It is clearly aimed at a new market (on price alone) and good luck to Naim, as none of us would wish the company to fail. VFM at these price points is impossible to judge as it is all about desire rather than need.
My hope is that the traditional (JV) Naim sound, on which the company built itself, will continue to be produced.
I would like some clarification whether the olive-front line is to continue if there is demand. My newly ordered 52 didn't arrive from the factory as planned yesterday because it is "not finished yet", so I assume I'm not just getting old stock, and production of the 52 continues for now.

I've said it before, but I tried to combine ATC and Naim for years,and it just don't work. Stick with one or the other

Hi folks.

Very interesting topic. In my opinion, it's purely up to Naim to decide how to price their gear - though I agree it seems very expensive - as only they know how much R&D cost and what percentage of components are 'acceptable' - and so on.

So, on that basis, the price argument is moot. I would never spend that sort of cash on an amp system - I do believe that the law of diminishing returns would dictate that other factors, such as the room interaction, electric supply and source material would mask the finest of improvements as offered.

As for driving any speakers at any volume? I don't see this as the point. Time and again I read of people trying to use their systems as PA stacks - if volume is what you desire then buy a PA stack; it's cheaper and certainly will 'blow you away' in pure volume terms. My limited experience with ATC50s (standard and slate stands) would support my impression that their owners really want a PA sound, which is fine.

The NAP500, which I have never heard, may or may not be able to drive every speaker, but I don't see that as being the point - it's all about the music. Having heard how poor the ATC50s sounded on their standard and slate stands (i.e. very poor indeed, albeit sonically impressive in the way a jet engine is sonically impressive under loading), I'm going to have to side with the Naimies by proxy.

The Music Is All

I suspect that the Naimite approach and the ATC approach appeal to people who want radically different things from their music - the former values music and rhythmic integrity, the latter values impact and dynamics. I think that a PA is better value than an ATC100 system and louder still, if that rocks your boat. But then, who listens at 100%? If you do, you'll end up half deaf and unable to discern a good sound from a bad one.

Me? I'm choosing a different route. My power amp probably can't even drive something like Kans, being 23w of plastic with the sole emphasis on musicality. The philosophy is that if I head down this route, I choose speakers to fit the amp, not the other way round (which marks this as distinct from the NAP500 philosophy) - and then all will be fine.

The PA3^S is regarded as perhaps the best solid state poweramp ever created by many, and if you don't want PA levels in your living room (and I certainly don't) then it makes every sense in the world...

Now all I have to do is wait...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."