NAC552 in HI-FI+

James wrote:

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SBLs to be ear-achingly "bright", "thin" "recessed" and "no-bassy

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Paul wrote:

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you have have never heard them set up correctly

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I wrote:

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James my boy, I can only conclude that you are deaf to arrive at this conclusion

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James concluded:

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I accept that that is indeed possible.

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James, I am so glad you see that acceptance is the first step to enlightenment.

best, Dev

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ps. I am forming a view that most of your audio opinions are based on hearsay as opposed to real experience or facts (‘I don’t like DBL’s, SBL’s drivers by Ruark, etc)

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...and that the NAP500 is overpriced.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner

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PS So you are not 'Steve King' in the other place?

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I could never be so bold. But he is a character isn't he? I thought he was same Steve King from here?

"Nirvana" was not what you think it is (I believe you're thinking of the Linn Linnk).

The Nirvana upgrade kit was a Linn update for the LP12 with better motor mounting bolts and suspension springs.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner

"These Naim owners are the only people who hear the album sounding remotely like music, unlike the poor old artists and engineer who haven't a clue, poor sods."

This could be the case.

"A Naim system really will give you a brand new CD collection."

Having heard a few very expensive systems lately that can't play a tune, this statement could also be true.

"I just found it amusing to conceptualise say half a million people buying an album but only maybe a hundred able to hear it properly."

Um...probably true again. Most systems I hear *do not* play music. I'm not trying to be argumenative, I think you would agree with this. Also, you don't have to have a Naim system to get music.

"I reckon the timing is largely unaffected by the sound the engineers get through their monitors."

Now, this one leads me to a tangent to this speaker thread. And that is if timing is so gawd awful fragile, then how is it that almost every CD and record produced can time correctly through a Naim or other brand system that times correctly? I mean, the signal is processed, processed again, mixed, remixed, and then copied in mass-production fashion onto CDs.

I have both the original CD release and the remaster (don't ask) of the Star Wars Soundtrack and it is interesting that the remaster has screwed up timing. For me, the mystery iswhy doesn't this happen more often?

- GregB, enjoying the musi

Well done Paul!

Greg wrote:

>I have both the original CD release and the remaster (don't ask) of the Star Wars Soundtrack and it is interesting that the remaster has screwed up timing. For me, the mystery is why doesn't this happen more often?<

For an example of simply biblical proportions, get hold of a vinyl version of the CBS half speed mastered 'Wish You Were Here'. I have absolutely no idea how they got it that bad.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Andrew wrote a page or so back:

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Funnily enough, I've heard ATCs on a couple of occasions and the word "muffled" springs to mind too. Perhaps James requires Mana to act as a "sticking plaster".

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I've heard the ATCs in question quite recently, and I've heard ATC50s off Mana in the past. If there was one word to spring to mind to describe their sound, it would most definitely not be muffled.

Up until I heard James's system, I sided with the ATC-is-like-a-PA-in-your-livingroom brigade, due to the fact that, off-Mana, they are awful (well, the ATC50s are) - brash, uncouth, no subtlety, tonally awry and relying on grunt rather than finesse.

On Mana, ATCs - well, okay, James's ATCs - redress this impression in a big way. They are in many ways superior to SBLs - and anyone arguing otherwise clearly hasn't heard them - though I think they're slower than properly setup SBLs, though I openly admit to having only heard properly setup SBLs a few times.

Admission time: I don't get on with SBLs, though they do many things well.

Admission time: I quite enjoyed James's ATCs, though I didn't think I would.

Admission time: ATCs on Mana represent one the most dynamic options available to the flat-earther, though I wouldn't change my own system (which doesn't have the sheer volume capability) for an ATC-based one, due to the few things that I believe the ATCs don't do.

Admission time: You're going to ask me what those things that the ATCs don't do, aren't you? And I'm going to have to think of a way of putting this in a positive light... so let me ruminate awhile...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Hi, it's me, the central scrutinizer...

Anyway, I'm going to try to describe what it is about the ATCs that make me prefer my own system, though I see plenty to desire in the ATC presentation. This will be tough, bear with me awhile...

When I listened to James's system, the word that kept springing to mind with the ATCs was effortless. Everything was effortless. This is a very desirable characteristic. What the ATCs provide is a seemingly limitless reserve of power, which is deployed in an efficient and 'effortless' fashion. For some music, this means big bass, bold dynamics and a sense of scale which is rare in my own experience. I find the ATCs major on this rare ability to scale enormous transients with grace and ease, and pin me to my seat whilst my breeks flap around in the bass waves. Listening to a typical tune is interesting and invigorating in equal measures.

When I listen to my own system, based around a very different approach, viz. limited power amps with state-of-the-art control - i.e. a tradeoff - I hear more and less. I'll start with the less and move onto the more.

I hear less volume - though my 23 watt power amp has grip second to none, there simply isn't the power to swing enormous transients at the intensity and scale of the ATCs. The ATCs seem to do this through brute force, my own system does this through exceptional speed and timing accuracy. Though the ATCs aren't slow, they aren't fast to my ears either - somewhere in the middle I would guess. Perhaps this is a room or a setup or a cable thing, I don't know.

In my own system, I find instruments don't sound so big - whereas with the ATC, I think that (say) a guitar occupies the entire soundstage, in my system it would be pinned to a point in the soundstage. This is one of the things that has lingered from my former round-earth leanings, and one of the things that perhaps can be attributed to the CDS2, which I also found was 'fat' sounding (see my ruminations about said player in these older threads: Original Agenda topic, and Followup Topic).

Secondly, this may sound strange for a system that has such huge dynamic and volumetric capability, but I kinda found that the ATCs 'squashed' the dynamic range somewhat. NOTE: I said dynamic range, not absolute dynamics here - in other words, I'm talking about the relative differences between quiet bits to loud bits, as opposed to how loud the loud bits are over silence.

The ATCs seemed to bring what I remember as very quiet subtleties right to the fore in the way that I ultimately found uncomfortable with Mana. It's kinda like using dynamic compression using a very high quality studio rack - the louds remain loud, but what was extremely subtle is made less so - let's be crass and unfair to James and point to the extreme example of Radio 1 as a case-point: i.e. compress everything so that it sounds larger than life. Now, James's system is very good indeed, but it did seem to do this to a degree (but not in the same magnitude as the oppressive compression that is Radio 1).

In my system, whilst I have traded-off absolute volume capabilities for other attributes, I find that the very subtlest of nuance is kept as subtle (but very much there).

Is this a criticism of the ATCs - well, not really. Depending on your POV you might think it a criticism of my own system. It's simply a difference in presentation. To argue that one is better than t'other is moot - I suspect that the majority here would fall in love with the ATC100-based system that James has. The reason I didn't is probably as much to do with the same reason I have auditioned Naim equipment on a number of occasions and chosen alternatives - it's the little differences in the 'fatness' of instruments, the lack of transparency (which is suprisingly present with the ATCs but absent in most Naim-based systems I've heard, probably due to the 'fatness' aspect plus that lousy NAC-A5 )

James did ask me to consider ditching my power amp and speaker and going down the ATC route, but in all fairness I don't think I'd be happy. However, James is delightfully happy and that's all that matters.

Me? Well, I often wish that Naim was the perfect sound for me (as it would make it so, so easy!) but alas I've chosen the path less travelled, but it is always good to hear the different systems that people have assembled...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

TC's 'larger than life' observation concurs with the one problem I have with Mana, especially with my digital source.

Anyway, I certainly agree that James is effortless

Alex

Hi Alex,

Thanks for agreeing. I think one has to own a bit of kit for a length of time to fully appreciate all that it can and can't do, and I think in my case I gave Mana the chance and I found that it did do this sort of 'compression' thing although in the vast majority of cases it sounded better than the previous phase. I mistook it for increased clarity, when in fact I think it was simply increased volume - a compression of the dynamic range. Which is why I ditched it*.

* that, plus the harmonic imbalance which I only really appreciated when I took my kit OFF the Mana. But, folks, I do like Mana (just not in my system, okay), so let's not go into a stand debate.

Alex, you'd like James's system, I think. I do, it's the best Naim system I have yet heard (though my new cd player through my Nait-2 and the SPM was a revelation - I had no idea that the Nait-2 could do some of those things! It's a pity that I need to use NAC-A5 for rabbit-proofing...)

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

James,

Is the ATC 100 ported?

I did say I was going to be scaling back my time on these forums, and here I am again... ah, well, such is life...

To answer you: my point was that dynamic range is not the same as absolute volume. Through all my posts since hearing your ATCs I have commented on its ease and volumetric capability, though I still felt that what I heard was a case of a compression of the quieter stuff - not the louder stuff. A bit like someone amplifying the really small nuances. This is no reflection on the louder stuff, which was loud and "ballsy" without question, but I did find that the 'range' (note: not absolute volume) of volume between these hitherto subtle nuances and the louder stuff seemed less pronounced than I would be comfortable with.

This is what I mean by compression: not compressing the peaks down, but lifting the quieter stuff up. That's it. In musical terminology, we're not questioning your ability to play fff - it's the fact that I felt that the ATCs made what I'd like to hear as ppp come across as pp. A subtle thing to many, but something I do value in my music.

For the record, this was also one of my major criticisms of Mana under my kit - it did seem to 'raise' the nuances until 'ghost' notes (i.e. ppp) became less 'ghosted' (i.e. p). This increases the perceived detail level but in some ways I felt it destroyed the nuance. I know this will rub all the Mana fans up the wrong way, but this was my experience.

In previous incarnations of my system, when the detail retrieval was a bit less capable, the system wasn't really that great at picking out ppp nuances against louder stuff like fff transients. Adding Mana raised the ppp to p, at which point I could easily hear these against the fff stuff, and I was fooled into believing that my system had become more detailed. It hadn't, in reality, it had just altered the dynamic balance in favour of a slightly more compressed dynamic range which I mistakenly perceived as extra detail. This is what I consider the great 'wow factor' of Mana - this ability to raise things into the fore, which is for a great many systems a very positive thing.

Now, however, my system can descriminate the nuances much more clearly, and the increased dynamic range makes these hitherto masked details obvious, but in a different way to how the ATC seems to do it.

I suspect that the culprit may not be the ATCs but the presence of Mana under your preamp or sources. This would explain a lot, though as a Mana user myself (albeit under speakers alone) I don't necessarily consider this a weakness or criticism for most people.

Does this sound fair?

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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Hi James,

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Hi Paul

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was an Elac design

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ooops, wrong again

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Isn't it about time that Naim moved on from using these old loudspeaker drivers to something a little more advanced?

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Wot? Like ATC's you mean!

Bloody hell James, don't beat about the bush, just tell it straight, like a man :

Get Some ATCs, Get More Mana (repeat a million times until you're bored and then a million times again.)

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Isn't it about time that Naim moved on from using these old loudspeaker drivers to something a little more advanced?

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Crikey!

IMO All dynamic drivers are pretty damn crude. All are essentially small electric motors with a lump of plastic or paper glued to the motor winding. None too enticing eh?

Now, where's the Naim electrostatic when you need it! Now that was more like it!

[This message was edited by Martin M on MONDAY 07 October 2002 at 17:31.]

So I think he should trade the ATCs for a man's speaker, preferably horn loaded, driven by Mana Stealth. Something to make his ears bleed. Or alternatively, buy a pair of Linn Saras and get that ear bleeding sensation on the cheap...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

james said:

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No, I merely like music

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what he mean't to say:

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No, I merely love my What-bloody-hifi-five-star-ATCs geddit?

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Dev -- who has heard ATC's (on/off Mana) and thinks they are good, but certainly not one the best IMHO.

Paul,
"I think the driver in the old and lamented IBL"

is a driver we make for the nbl and dbl mid, it is also used in the new axent and axess.

James
"Isn't it about time that Naim moved on from using these old loudspeaker drivers to something a little more advanced?"

The sl2/allae driver as well as the intro driver utilises many innovative features, the phase ali correction device, OUR custom designed chassis and use of mass dampers cannot found on any other driver.

You would know all this if you cared to visit our web site so that you would be better informed.

Marco

Just read Pauls comment " see you Thursday"

I am popping into Naim, on Thursday morning, to get my dining room system overhauled whilst I am on holiday.

If you are also down there, we might be able to meet up. I cannot stay long as I have a busy day and have to be at the airport for 5.00pm.

If I have mis read the situation, my apologies.

Regards

Mick

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. Lambs to the slaughter? Stallion hit the nail on the head. I'm surprised that you are so sensitive about your SBLs. As long as you like them, that's all that really matters. I think they are not all that good - so what?

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James, I will try to write this without sounding patronising - but let me assure you that I am not in the slightest way sensitive about SBL's, or anything else for that matter. Those who know me will say that i am pretty open minded about most things in general but I just find your ATC rants amusing and like to counter your prolific praise with a bit of your 'own medicine' so to speak. Hope that clears up any misunderstanding, and you will be more than welcome to come and have your ears assaulted when you are next in London. regards, Dev