What's wrong with my LP12?

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Can anyone recommend upgrades to my LP12 as I feel the reproduction from the LP12 is way inferior to that I am getting from the CDX.

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The only things I can think of are a) your dealer ain’t as good as he thinks b) you have a really horrible equipment stand. I have a far more humble LP12 (Valhalla / Ittok / MC25FL) and it utterly annihilated my CDX, which is one reason the CDX is on its way to South Korea as we speak…

As a rule Linn’s hate heavy mass loaded stands, i.e. sideboards, hi-fi tables loaded with amps etc – it wants either a light dedicated table or a table designed to decouple the shelf from the rest of the mass. All of the main contenders (QS / Mana / Hutter / Base / Fraim) have their fans. Do a search on any of these for some of the most insane ranting ever seen on the internet, but take with you one message, and that is that stands do indeed make a big difference, especially with turntables.

Tony.

Hi Peter,

I'm surprised at your problem because it sounds like you have an excellent deck there. I have a reasonably similar setup to yours, and when I first got the CDX it reallt made the ES22s get up and boogie. At the time I was running a K18 on the LP12/Lingo/Ittok LVIII v2, and to be honest the CDX blew it away on account of better PRAT. When I replaced the K18 with an MC Rohmann, the 2 sources where even in terms of PRAT (boogie factor), but the LP12 was miles ahead in terms of naturalness (instruments sounding lifelike). Adding a Prefix and Hicap lifted the boogie factor as well as the lifelike sound to the point where the CDX was clearly the inferior source. I have since replaced the CDX with a CDS1, which is far superior in these respects, but still not up to the level of the analogue, all things being equal.

In your case a Prefix is pretty cheap option because you don't even need another power supply. Why not give it a go? While I've never heard an Archiv, I find it difficult to imagine that Linn's top cartridge would not be up the job, but others can judge that better than I can. Good luck with it.

Cheers Jens

This is a setup issue - you don't need an upgrade. Either the LP12 is sitting on something inappropriate (as Tony says), is set up badly, is not level or (unlikely) something is worn out.

I suggest you recruit the help of a local forum member who understands LP12's or better still, change your dealer to one who does.

Regards
Steve

There appears to be a collective view about the inportance of stands. My system is stacked on an Ash Design Cosmic Tower 7 (see pic below from their website) which I must admit I bought for looks but did notice that until Fraim arrived on the scene that Naim used to use these stands at their shows so I took that to be an endorsement of the product.

Does anyone have any experience or viewpoint on these stands?

Now you've done it, Peter, you've opened up the dreaded religion question again! I can see it now - 3 or 4 armies, all swinging the stands of their choice.

If both sources are on the Ash, both are likely to be suffering equally from it, so changing stands may not solve your problem.

You really need someone knowledgeable to listen to your LP12. Certainly an ARO and Armageddon would sound better (joke! joke!), but even a Lingo/Ekos/Arkiv will sound pretty good...magnificent, even, unless there's something wrong with it.

Regards and best of luck in solving this rapidly.

Phil

Whilst this is not the optimum solution for lp12 support it is unlikely to be destroying the sound to the point that it sounds worse than your CD player.

Is it totally level?
Is it rigid (no stand wobble)?
Do you have a Trampolinn?
Have you checked tracking force?
have you transported the Linn with the arm counterweight in place?

Also - try and describe why it sounds worse - is it thin and harsh or woolly and muffled?

If the cartridge is not run in, it will sound bad (thin, edgy, harsh etc) - I can't bear to listen to a new cartridge for the first 10 hours or so.

Regards
Steve

Steve

To answer your questions yes is totally level, stand rigid, no trampolinn, have checked tracking force and no have never trasported with counterweight.

The problem with the sound is poor soundstaging and seperation. Acoustic guitar for example sounds muffled. Whilst the CDX picks up the sound of fingers travelling up and down the strings and reproduces with clarity every note the LP12 just sounds dull with no PRAT.

Perhaps I should get this deck checked out.

Anyone have any recommendations for LP12 surgeons in the Essex or Central London Area.

How much difference does a Prefix make in % terms of improvement?

Peter



Without igniting the debate...

Whilst this is not the optimum solution for lp12 support it is unlikely to be destroying the sound to the point that it sounds worse than your CD player.

Is it totally level?
Is it rigid (no stand wobble)?
Do you have a Trampolinn?
Have you checked tracking force?
have you transported the Linn with the arm counterweight in place?

Also - try and describe why it sounds worse - is it thin and harsh or woolly and muffled?

If the cartridge is not run in, it will sound bad (thin, edgy, harsh etc) - I can't bear to listen to a new cartridge for the first 10 hours or so.

Regards
Steve

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My system is stacked on an Ash Design Cosmic Tower 7 (see pic below from their website) which I must admit I bought for looks but did notice that until Fraim arrived on the scene that Naim used to use these stands at their shows so I took that to be an endorsement of the product.

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My money would be on this being the major problem assuming your deck really is ok. I’m not pointing at it because it’s a bad stand; I have never heard one so I don’t know. The reason I’m deeply suspicious of it is because its heavy and mass loaded with the rest of your kit – LP12s do not like this at all. Do you have a light table around to try it on? An Ikea Lack is competent enough to prove this point.

Tony.

PS Don’t pay any attention to Naim until they go back to using turntables at shows!

Hi Tony

Have just returned from trying LP12 on seperate table away from the main stand. No difference!

Peter

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Have just returned from trying LP12 on seperate table away from the main stand. No difference!

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I have never heard a change of table not make a difference, even if it has been to make things worse. This is starting to point very firmly towards the deck being more than a bit ill. I’m not that familiar with which London dealers have the best LP12 gurus, but you want to find one soon! Perhaps someone here can recommend a good one.

Reading your description of what’s wrong sound wise the problem could point to one or more of several possibilities; basic suspension set up, cartridge alignment, VTA, tracking force, right through to nasty stuff like a buggered cartridge, buggered arm bearings, or buggered main bearing. What is the history of your deck? When did it start to sound off? (assuming it worked well at one point).

Tony.

Peter,

You're on the money-take the deck to a knowledgeable dealer for a second opinion. If you are having trouble with acoustic guitar there has to be something wrong. In my system this is an area where the LP12 has always shat all over the CD player because the latter manages to bring a steely sound to something that should sound warm. After it's been checked by someone who knows the LP12 well, why not bring along your CDX for a comparison at the dealers place? Then if your LP12 is pronounced as being in good health you'll be able to convince yourself there and then.

Prefix adds about 30% to the sound I guess. The soundstage gets bigger, instruments more lifelike (particularly strings), and imaging improves because it seems that the small sounds (triangles etc.) are being reproduced much more accurately. Tracking also improves because the suspension can bounce more freely. The downside is that the Prefix is susceptible to static, so you need to be careful when turning records over. If the mat sticks to the record and you wipe it across the rotating platter you often get a pop through the speakers.

Cheers, Jens

Sorry to hear your LP12 is working OK. A friend of mine had a similar problem many years ago. His deck sounded poor compared to mine and other friends LP12s. We tried it on A/B dems in each other systems, swapped arms, cartridges valhallas, cables etc, reset the suspension, redressed the cables, new P clips, new suspension, new belt. His dealer said it sounded fine, but serviced it anyway. It still sounded bad to us. In the end he got rid of the plinth and main bearing got s/h replacements and put on his old Valhalla/Ittok/Klyde. It sounds great. I believe the problem was with the main bearing. Not easy to check, but if the other elements are OK then this is a possible suspect.

I believe this is one of two things:

1. You prefer the looser Naim presentation.
2. The deck setup. i.e. the bounce isn't right.

In London, I've heard good things of Infidelity and Grahams for LP12 setup. Both should have enough experience to be able to verify if the deck is setup correctly for you. If they verify that everying is pukka with the deck, I think you have to consider whether an Armageddon is going to be more up your street. I say Armageddon because the Arkiv and Naim ARO don't seem to get on so that would be a much bigger expense. The Armageddon doesn't have the metronomic control of the Lingo, so it tends to sound more fluid.

That said, I'm willing to bet it's deck setup.

I have some experience with the Ash Designs stand. Your system would do a lot better with a more capable stand. Although pretty, the Ash Designs leaves a lot to be desired in the performance stakes, causing time smears and lack of resolution with a slightly bright (strained) treble. However, I've discounted this right now since both CDX and LP12 are on it.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

The mushy dragging sound you get out of your deck in no way is representative of what a well set up much lower spec LP12 is capable of. All of those attributes you describe *could* be entirely bearing related. There may however be a quick fix that doesn't require replacing the bearing (and inner platter).....CHANGE THE OIL! I have had previous turntables that gradually lost their tune that were rejuvenated by a simple change of oil in the bearing well. On the short term, it probably wouldnt hurt to use the 3-in-1 oil, and replacing it with the Linn-sanctioned black oil in the near future. At the very least it would sound no worse, and potentially much better- with further gains when the Linn oil is obtained. Like car engines it is far kinder to the bearings to use new oil of about any spec than to have low levels of old and broken down oil.

Although your deck may have been recently serviced, it is possible that the oil was not replaced.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

Just wanted to thank all those who contributed for their help and suggestions for this problem.

Looks like I have no option but to get it looked at by another dealer.

Does anyone know someone who will service on site rather than me having to drive it and possibly undoing part of the set-up on it's return journey home.