naim dvd player - wait or not ?
Posted by: nilocmal on 19 January 2004
i'm in the market for a new dvd player to add to my av2 / 150 / 175. i won't bore you with rest of the setup.
i'm considering the arcam dv89 / denon 2900 / any other suggestions / waiting for the naim player.
tempting to wait for naim's for comparison purposes, but current player is well below par and a replacement needed urgently...
thoughts anyone ?
i'm considering the arcam dv89 / denon 2900 / any other suggestions / waiting for the naim player.
tempting to wait for naim's for comparison purposes, but current player is well below par and a replacement needed urgently...
thoughts anyone ?
"What a strange comment - much the same type of differences as between a CD player of £80 and one of £2,000 but visually rather than aurally".
Oh I see. That means it will require its own Fraim or 18 stage Mana just to be able to read the subtitiles?
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Oh I see. That means it will require its own Fraim or 18 stage Mana just to be able to read the subtitiles?
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Hmmmm
Interesting thread.
If it was me, and I could contemplate the 2k assumed asking price, I'd be waiting. My guess would be that on the picture front it should equal other top-flight players - bettering them would be another matter though, as I daresay it will use OEM chips just like everybody else on the video side, whereas it's strengths would undoubtedly be in the audio side, both 2 & 5 channel, as it is very much Naims area of expertise.
I would tend to think the decision to build a DVD player would've been born more of commercial imperatives rather than the desire to build something with a picture quality that beats everything else; nonetheless to produce a top picture, but with the best sound going would more likely be the aim IMHO.
The bottom line will be to see and hear it when it arrives, and judge if the difference/improvement in performance over 'lesser'/cheaper products is worth the extra outlay.
If it were me, unless I needed it NOW, I'd wait.
Just to be difficult though, I think that one also has to consider that a good slice of the cost is going to go towards the development and R & D costs, which is more than fair enough IMHO.
Having said that, a small (by comparison with large multinational companies) specialist organisation such as Naim will never be able to produce quality at the prices of 'mainstream' high-end products such as the top Denon's, Sony, Pioneer etc, simply because of economies of scale and production.
Additionally, speaking for myself, I had to come to terms with/recognise some of my own biases when I bought a Sony DVD player around 18mnths or so ago, because it was, wait for it 'Japanese' and a Sony to boot. No way that it could be a 'prestige' or 'audiophile quality' product suitable to team with my Naim gear.
How wrong I was.
The top Sony ES series DVD player, is built from 2mm thick steel, all copper plated for EMF, has off centre cast iron feet with rubber inserts for mechanical isolation, as well as circuit boards decoupled from the main chassis; a proprietary transport specially developed for the model, which is hermetically sealed in operation, twin transformers with separate regulated power supplies for audio and video, twin clocks for audio and video as well, and the base has additional laminated damping material fitted to further aid in acoustic and mechanical isolation.
These are the sort of features and build quality one would find in a component that if manufactured by say Krell or another 'high end' company, would cost many thousands more.
IMHO Naim's DVD would score highly if they still individually spec test each component, so that it is in a sense a hand matched product, and hence item A is going to perform as well as item Z on the production line, plus of course Naim's expertise with sound. That plus the build and engineering would make it well worth waiting for IMHO if you are in a position to contemplate it.
Nonetheless, my only caveat would be not to underestimate the quality of the 'mainstream' products such as Denons' Sony, Pioneer etc - to dismiss them as automatically being 'inferior' because they are 'Japanese' or 'mainstream' or don't have a prestige audiophile name (and price tag) would be a mistake IMHO.
Please don't think I'm Naim bashing here; I'm not, it's just that as in most things to do with high end audio these days, the differences in performance can be relatively subtle, whilst the price never is. Nonetheless, one does get what one pays for in the end.
Personally, I'd love an AV2/175 combo - the best that I've heard for AV purposes, and the new DVD player interests me as well for similar reasons.
However, with freight, duty, markup, exchange rates and GST etc, an AV2/175 combo was AUS$11,000.00 at the last time of asking 18mnths ago. Here in OZ, that's a very great deal of money for two boxes to add on to a 2 channel system for AV. To put that in perspective, I could buy a brand new Honda Jazz for AUS$16,000.00 - not that I want that sort of car, but you get the point. Sadly, I could not get my head around the cost of the AV2/175, given other things I can do with that amount of money re improving the quality of my life OVERALL. Hence I went with an ES Sony AV processor/multi-mode power amp solution - similar build and features to the DVD player - it was/is not as good as the AV2/175, but comes remarkably close for a great deal less money. Certainly close enough performance wise, that when listening in isolation, one does not feel at all short-changed.
Oh dear, I'm starting to jump on a soap box I fear, which I didn't really want to do, but I guess with the situation of distance/exhange rates, freight/taxes and duties etc, UK equipment is always going to cost a large premium in this market, for relatively small comparative returns, and unfortunately it looks as if the same thing will apply to the DVD player.
So my final whinge is; if you're in the UK, then at ₤2k, it's probably going to be an absolute bargain considering it doesn't appear to cost that much more than the top Japanese players, or the likes of the top Arcams. (In the ₤1300 - ₤1600 bracket I believe)
If it's any help perspective wise, the Sony DVD has the edge picture wise over the FMJ Arcam IMHO (having A-B'd them) but the Arcam has the better sound (mainly with CD's -less so with movies) Of course, as our American friends are want to say, YMMV.
Anyway, just my lowly deflated AUS 2c worth..
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Interesting thread.
If it was me, and I could contemplate the 2k assumed asking price, I'd be waiting. My guess would be that on the picture front it should equal other top-flight players - bettering them would be another matter though, as I daresay it will use OEM chips just like everybody else on the video side, whereas it's strengths would undoubtedly be in the audio side, both 2 & 5 channel, as it is very much Naims area of expertise.
I would tend to think the decision to build a DVD player would've been born more of commercial imperatives rather than the desire to build something with a picture quality that beats everything else; nonetheless to produce a top picture, but with the best sound going would more likely be the aim IMHO.
The bottom line will be to see and hear it when it arrives, and judge if the difference/improvement in performance over 'lesser'/cheaper products is worth the extra outlay.
If it were me, unless I needed it NOW, I'd wait.
Just to be difficult though, I think that one also has to consider that a good slice of the cost is going to go towards the development and R & D costs, which is more than fair enough IMHO.
Having said that, a small (by comparison with large multinational companies) specialist organisation such as Naim will never be able to produce quality at the prices of 'mainstream' high-end products such as the top Denon's, Sony, Pioneer etc, simply because of economies of scale and production.
Additionally, speaking for myself, I had to come to terms with/recognise some of my own biases when I bought a Sony DVD player around 18mnths or so ago, because it was, wait for it 'Japanese' and a Sony to boot. No way that it could be a 'prestige' or 'audiophile quality' product suitable to team with my Naim gear.
How wrong I was.
The top Sony ES series DVD player, is built from 2mm thick steel, all copper plated for EMF, has off centre cast iron feet with rubber inserts for mechanical isolation, as well as circuit boards decoupled from the main chassis; a proprietary transport specially developed for the model, which is hermetically sealed in operation, twin transformers with separate regulated power supplies for audio and video, twin clocks for audio and video as well, and the base has additional laminated damping material fitted to further aid in acoustic and mechanical isolation.
These are the sort of features and build quality one would find in a component that if manufactured by say Krell or another 'high end' company, would cost many thousands more.
IMHO Naim's DVD would score highly if they still individually spec test each component, so that it is in a sense a hand matched product, and hence item A is going to perform as well as item Z on the production line, plus of course Naim's expertise with sound. That plus the build and engineering would make it well worth waiting for IMHO if you are in a position to contemplate it.
Nonetheless, my only caveat would be not to underestimate the quality of the 'mainstream' products such as Denons' Sony, Pioneer etc - to dismiss them as automatically being 'inferior' because they are 'Japanese' or 'mainstream' or don't have a prestige audiophile name (and price tag) would be a mistake IMHO.
Please don't think I'm Naim bashing here; I'm not, it's just that as in most things to do with high end audio these days, the differences in performance can be relatively subtle, whilst the price never is. Nonetheless, one does get what one pays for in the end.
Personally, I'd love an AV2/175 combo - the best that I've heard for AV purposes, and the new DVD player interests me as well for similar reasons.
However, with freight, duty, markup, exchange rates and GST etc, an AV2/175 combo was AUS$11,000.00 at the last time of asking 18mnths ago. Here in OZ, that's a very great deal of money for two boxes to add on to a 2 channel system for AV. To put that in perspective, I could buy a brand new Honda Jazz for AUS$16,000.00 - not that I want that sort of car, but you get the point. Sadly, I could not get my head around the cost of the AV2/175, given other things I can do with that amount of money re improving the quality of my life OVERALL. Hence I went with an ES Sony AV processor/multi-mode power amp solution - similar build and features to the DVD player - it was/is not as good as the AV2/175, but comes remarkably close for a great deal less money. Certainly close enough performance wise, that when listening in isolation, one does not feel at all short-changed.
Oh dear, I'm starting to jump on a soap box I fear, which I didn't really want to do, but I guess with the situation of distance/exhange rates, freight/taxes and duties etc, UK equipment is always going to cost a large premium in this market, for relatively small comparative returns, and unfortunately it looks as if the same thing will apply to the DVD player.
So my final whinge
is; if you're in the UK, then at ₤2k, it's probably going to be an absolute bargain considering it doesn't appear to cost that much more than the top Japanese players, or the likes of the top Arcams. (In the ₤1300 - ₤1600 bracket I believe) If it's any help perspective wise, the Sony DVD has the edge picture wise over the FMJ Arcam IMHO (having A-B'd them) but the Arcam has the better sound (mainly with CD's -less so with movies) Of course, as our American friends are want to say, YMMV.
Anyway, just my lowly deflated AUS 2c worth..
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
interestingly, this is not always so straight forward. It depends on how the particular DVD is encoded and how well/correctly the DVD players in question handle decoding that format. "DVD" it turns out is not just one standard format for encoding images on a disk.
Thanks for the link Greg, made for a very interesting read - Heh, yes I see what you mean, kind of makes it a bit farcical trying to AB kit if each player needs to be calibrated to the display etc.
Certainly makes choosing on the basis of A-B demo a lot harder than what one otherwise appreciate. My only consolation was that they reviewed the 90000ES Sony DVD player that I ended up going with, and it did rather well in their technical review of it.
Still, certainly throws more than a few cats amongst the pidgeons re evaluating DVD players....sigh....
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary