Naim vs Benchmark

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Lack of proper color is a coloration. The idea that sterile is neutral is a misnomer

I'd agree with that, but the DAC1 has been compared enough times to the original master tape to confirm this is not the case.

Since when did application of a one-size-fits-all approach to sample rate conversion (in the case of the Benchmark) constitute "pro" performance??

I can think of more than a handful of mastering engineers I know that have ruled it out solely on the basis of its re-sampling (i.e., because you are never getting a true picture of what's happening at various sample rates).

Sorry, but IMHO the DAC1 is bright and the useless audio equivalent of an adjustable wrench that never properly fits anything it is intended to turn. The Lavry is better.

quote:

Since when did application of a one-size-fits-all approach to sample rate conversion (in the case of the Benchmark) constitute "pro" performance??

I can think of more than a handful of mastering engineers I know that have ruled it out solely on the basis of its re-sampling (i.e., because you are never getting a true picture of what's happening at various sample rates).

And for every mastering engineer who rules it out there are probably five who care less about some vague technical POV and more about the end result. There are many, many pro reviews out there that have nothing but praise for the DAC-1. It turns out that for home use it's an absolute gem (given a good signal), and represents superb value for money - certainly, VFM is in a different league to that found in home audio gear. Perhaps that would explain the reaction of certain 'Trade Members'.

quote:

Sorry, but IMHO the DAC1 is bright and the useless audio equivalent of an adjustable wrench that never properly fits anything it is intended to turn.

Complete and utter nonsense!

Mr Tibbs

I think I speak for many "trade members" when I point out that good VFM gear is a win-win for everyone in the industry.

I'd also point out that my first impressions of the DAC1 originated at a time when I worked far outside the hi-fi industry. Everybody wants the best possible sound for their budget, professional or consumer, and I've taken the bait many times on this and other fora, only to be disappointed.

It is also fair game to expose the typical anti-Naim sentiment (expressed here and elsewhere) that seeks to displace any piece of Naim equipment with a less expensive (and subsequently better performing) alternative. Some of this is culturally based-but this should have absolutely nothing to do with price, ultimately....

I also feel the Lavry better, the Weiss better again and Nagra LB better than anything else below $3k that I'm familiar with so far as either a D/A or A/D. None of these are very costly. I was sinscere in my saying that I was happy you found something that works that well for you and that we can disagree but I do disagree and frankly, I don't care what anyone else uses or how. Why would that change my opinion from use and it's no standard in the recording industry. As usual, all should do the same and judge for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
I also feel the Lavry better, the Weiss better again and Nagra LB better than anything else below $3k that I'm familiar with so far as either a D/A or A/D.

JS - if I am correctly interpreting your words above, the only DACs you have heard in the sub $3k category that are better than the Lavry DA10 are the Weiss and the Nagra LB.

This is certainly a big turnaround from the impression I had about a year ago when the DA10 was being derided as horrible, unbearable, etc, etc. The DA10 is actually the only DAC I have ever heard at any price category, but it has impressed me greatly and it is reassuring to read that you are now agreeing that it is indeed a leading contender in its price class. I look forward to hearing the other two contenders you have identified to see if they are indeed good enough to supplant the DA10 in my system.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
I also feel the Lavry better, the Weiss better again and Nagra LB better than anything else below $3k that I'm familiar with so far as either a D/A or A/D.

JS - if I am correctly interpreting your words above, the only DACs you have heard in the sub $3k category that are better than the Lavry DA10 are the Weiss and the Nagra LB.

This is certainly a big turnaround from the impression I had about a year ago when the DA10 was being derided as horrible, unbearable, etc, etc. The DA10 is actually the only DAC I have ever heard at any price category, but it has impressed me greatly and it is reassuring to read that you are now agreeing that it is indeed a leading contender in its price class. I look forward to hearing the other two contenders you have identified to see if they are indeed good enough to supplant the DA10 in my system.

Those were never my words but the impessions of others of them. Still prefer a moderate Naim Cd player with CDs or a SuperNait in general. Haven't heard everything under $3k. Lavry just wasn't for me and as people are now finding out with the Weiss, Tos out from Itunes is far from perfect. The combo doesn't do a thing for me but the Lavry was (at the time)as good as any stand alone I've heard at $1k and I said so. Just wasn't good enough for me to consider carrying it so no, I didn't think it special in any way. Just better than a DAC-1. I haven't had them side by side but I feel the cheaper Music Hall which I have recently taken on is better yet still not a SN.

You may be confusing some of my posts with another member's that brought the Lavry Mac combo into the shop. He once later heard better things coming from a tweeked Beresford clone with good source and interface that I was playing with for fun. I quickly pointed out that I felt the Lavry better as a stand alone retail piece and the difference was in how they were used.

This began by my competence being called into question on this board regarding a Lavry audition and my response. I have no vendetta and never posted before being attacked. If you listen to one of my parter Ken's recent 24/96 transfers from the Naim catalog, you'll understand where we're coming from. We are generally of one mind here.

Things are looking up. Digital is coming of age. In the last year we have finally heard digital match analog in music retreival and can finally take advantage of it's noise and transfer attributes.

I've never said those that disagree weren't entitled to their opinions. I'm also entitled to mine and the venom was and is uncalled for.

My apologies if I had incorrectly attributed the words above to your assessment of the Lavry. I recall them being used in a post that reported the results of the listening session in your store and somehow assumed that they represented a jointly held opinion.

I suppose then that we actually agree on (slightly) more than I realized - the only significant disagreement from my POV is in how the Lavry compares to any Naim CDP that I've lived with. For the record, I still believe that it is more than a match for any up to and including the CDS3/XPS2 although the latter comes fairly close. Not that Naim CDPs do not outperform other CD players that I've heard - just that the DACs produced by (at least some) pro audio companies appear to represent a totally different VFM proposition.

I have no reason to doubt your assertion that Toslink may be inferior to firewire and would like to listen to the Weiss at some point for that reason. The Weiss is more than twice the price of the DA10 and hence should, all things considered, represent a step up in sound quality.

It does.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:
My apologies if I had incorrectly attributed the words above to your assessment of the Lavry. I recall them being used in a post that reported the results of the listening session in your store and somehow assumed that they represented a jointly held opinion.

I suppose then that we actually agree on (slightly) more than I realized - the only significant disagreement from my POV is in how the Lavry compares to any Naim CDP that I've lived with. For the record, I still believe that it is more than a match for any up to and including the CDS3/XPS2 although the latter comes fairly close. Not that Naim CDPs do not outperform other CD players that I've heard - just that the DACs produced by (at least some) pro audio companies appear to represent a totally different VFM proposition.

I have no reason to doubt your assertion that Toslink may be inferior to firewire and would like to listen to the Weiss at some point for that reason. The Weiss is more than twice the price of the DA10 and hence should, all things considered, represent a step up in sound quality.

It's not so much the firewire but a better way to get the signal to the DAC which in this case happens to be firewire. If you get a chance to try it, get a player that you can connect via ASIO which I believe it accomidates and play a bit with the buffer settings. As things become clearer, rips and format also become more distinguishable. Please don't take this as more than it is. I can only rely on my personal experience. I didn't find the Weiss a world beater but better than other similar bits of kit and pretty good. It's a better mouse trap and may help a few here understand some of the things I've been saying all along about computer streaming. It uses the same firewire input circuit I've recommended here since day one but now it's becoming a good thing since it's accepted by the bretherin . I'm sure that we'll all eventual come together with most of this.

Thanks - I am sure it would be of interest to some to play around with the things you have mentioned above (buffer settings, ASIO, etc), but to be honest it's not a priority for me. Presently I'm enjoying the best replay I have ever experienced (on both analog and digital formats BTW), so the opportunity cost in terms of musical enjoyment would be hard to justify.

If and when I do try the Weiss, I would hope that it will provide outstanding performance right out of the box (via the firewire input) without having to experiment with settings, etc. After all, that was my experience with the Lavry and I suppose it has left me somewhat spoiled as a result.

There's a lot of knocking the DAC1 on this forum, which is why I can be bothered to respond, because it's an unfair slur on an otherwise superior product. There’s no doubting Abbey Road, which is clearly a definitive and modern studio in which it produces superb recordings using top notch – bar none equipment.

So for the record, this is what they use in their studios: -
Apogee Rosetta 200 AD-DA
Benchmark DAC-1’s
Benchmark ADC-1’s
Prism Sound AD124 A-D and SNS
Weiss EQ1-MK2 equaliser
Weiss DS1-MK2 de-esser/compressor/limiter

Then again, they are obviously deaf from years of engineering

No one said it couldn't work for the purpose. There is still better and worse. I better go out and buy some studio monitors while I'm at it.

Every studio has their own preference as do we. They're not all wrong or all right. Really, what you use and like doesn't concern me. The preaching of perfect and alike because of of who uses it does. Good enough is fine but sometimes there's more to be had for some, sometimes not.

All should listen and decide for themselves and I've said that numerous times while you and others are the ones insisting. I think there's enough point counterpoint here for those that are interested to find out for themselves. Nothing to defend.

Well, whilst you make the tea, I'd take my pick on a world class studio over a HiFi dealer any day; since they produce the very recording you are trying to replay. In fact, perfect for a DAC1 by all reported accounts. So all being your supporting equipment is good enough, you would have no complaints using a DAC1 or studio other.

Though on a personal note, I don't use a DAC1. We all have different ideas about what is right and preferable, and there is always an opposite view, just that mine represents good value for money.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
Well, whilst you make the tea, I'd take my pick on a world class studio over a HiFi dealer any day; since they produce the very recording you are trying to replay. In fact, perfect for a DAC1 by all reported accounts. So all being your supporting equipment is good enough, you would have no complaints using a DAC1 or studio other.

Though on a personal note, I don't use a DAC1. We all have different ideas about what is right and preferable, and there is always an opposite view, just that mine represents good value for money.

Whatever you want to think is fine but we produce some pretty good commercial recordings, LOL and they're all acoustic based. Some have won awards. It also doesn't mean we're right but tit for tat and all that. This type of silly discrediting is what I was getting at earlier. We can agree to disagree. As this is again becoming a pissing match, I'm out as I have no interest. Have at it.

PMR

Sorry however after reading your comments I would like to intervene - give it a rest

There is no need for personal attacks on JS. He is just expressing his opinions - those which are based upon his unique position of being a dealer who has had the opportunity to demo the various components which have been mentioned on this thread. He is entitled to post his viewpoints and should not have to bear the brunt of anyones criticism and/or veiled insults.

Can this thread now get back on track.

JS - Nagra LB - a google came up with a digital recorder and not a DAC - ??

Thanks
Gregg

quote:

It does.

Can't disagree with that

Apologies if I caused any offence.

I think I quite like js' integrity. It does not really bother me at all whether his view is right or wrong, he just speaks his opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Tibbs:

And for every mastering engineer who rules it out there are probably five who care less

Exactly!!! That is why 5 out 6 albums made SUCK!

Thanks guys and all's good. PC, I considered mentioning that but thought better of it. I'm not quite sure that's the ratio and lots of good music that's still worth the listen but the point is valid. I think those engineers that you may not care for do try but are listening for other things. I've heard some very reasonable recordings made by some of Ken's students with very mediocre gear. Kiss principle. He teaches at Columbia College. I've done a few myself when he couldn't be at 2 places at the same time for live events.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
Well, whilst you make the tea, I'd take my pick on a world class studio over a HiFi dealer any day; since they produce the very recording you are trying to replay. In fact, perfect for a DAC1 by all reported accounts. So all being your supporting equipment is good enough, you would have no complaints using a DAC1 or studio other.

Though on a personal note, I don't use a DAC1. We all have different ideas about what is right and preferable, and there is always an opposite view, just that mine represents good value for money.

I wouldn't pick a world-class studio over a hi-fi dealer's shop solely on principle–I've worked pleasurably in both (in fact–a few with Ken, JS' partner).

Professional audio is an evolving discipline which feeds to and from the audiophile community; as a result, there are plenty of products which appear in one area of practice first, then are adopted as good basic tools for evaluative use.

However–and I can't stress this enough–there's a significant difference between a multinational food producer's test lab and a chef's kitchen at home, with two different approaches taken to making a single serving of macaroni and cheese, for example. One approach minimizes the differences between preparation, the other widens them so. Likewise–a recording mixed on a pair of Auratones using a DAC1 may yet sound better on a better-resolved system.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
It does.

DHT - thanks for this feedback re. the Weiss. If it manages to improve on the already superlative digital playback I am presently enjoying, I can only look forward to making its acquaintance sometime in the not too distant future.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
I'd take my pick on a world class studio over a HiFi dealer any day; since they produce the very recording you are trying to replay.

Makes a lot of sense to me - whatever one might think of the general quality of contemporary music (and I'm no fan of much of it myself) there's no getting around the fact that, more often than not, the musicians who produce the music (and who are best acquainted with the musical message they are trying to convey) and the recording engineers who actually hear the original performance are the most demanding audience it is possible to have. This is likely the reason for the huge gap that appears to exist between the pro audio and audiophile worlds where the price to performance ratio is concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

JS - Nagra LB - a google came up with a digital recorder and not a DAC - ??

Thanks
Gregg

It's designed as a portable recorder for journalists etc but with more capabilities. Check the dimensions. It's smaller than it looks. Has a dig in, does A2D, D2A and has a pair of excellent mic pre's with available phantom power. Also bluetooth and ethernet but I believe it's just for transfer of files. Not quite the PRAT of the VI on playback but I prefer it at any of it's functions individually to what I've heard at its price elsewhere. A psc and some good cables accomidate it nicely. I don't own one personally as I'm waiting for the Naim DAC before I decide what to get but there is one on hand. What I may know of the Naim that I can't discuss will keep me in a holding position. Paul gave a few hints a while back when in Chicago. The LB is a lot closer to a Nagra VI than the other DACs we've been discussing are to it. Being a self contained unit, you can play an imported file locally to give you a nice comparison to your playback setup's dig out. Does excellent live recordings with the right mics. You know, the performances we hear first hand when we record them. By the way, you can often get a better sound from the mics than a seat.

The purpose of a studio is to arrange or change the sound to your liking and it can be a good thing but it usually doesn't tend to be exactly what came into the mics. This is also true of many of Ken's latest 24/96 and 16 bit downloads available here. They've been subtlety tweeked for the good.