ARO/Cartridge Setup

First suggestion is to clean the stylus, and not just with the floppy brush tha DV supply. That's great for ordinary dust build up, but doesn't work well with stodgy grime deposits. I use the Audio Technica cleaning fluid - very carefully!

Second, you don't say where you are, but if you're in the UK, or near by, is this something you've noticed since the weather turned colder? If so, you might try increasing the tracking weight slightly: with the colder temperatures, the suspension in the cartridge becomes less compliant, and that can affect the tracking.

With my XX-2, I'm finding that sound, especially on the inner grooves, varies a great deal from when the cartridge is "cold", to when it's "warmed up". Basically, when I first out a record on, really high frequencies can sound harsh a distorted, a bit like mistracking, but by the fourth side, or so, that's gone, and I can put that first record on again, and it sounds excellent. You could try that, and even shine a small spot light on the cartridge to get some heat into it (it really needs to be a mains voltage one, not a low voltage one, so be careful, you don't want to over heat the cartridge, or warp your favourite records!

Third, you may also want to investigate the anti-skate you have set: too high or too low is likely, in my experience, to have a greater effect on the inner tracks.

Last, if none of the above works, or is relevant, I'd suggest going back to square one: do a full setup on the deck. Check the deck is level, check the bearing on Aro, make there are no tight or rough spots when you turn, when you put the arm tube on, make sure that the wires out the cup are clear of the pivot. Set the tracking weight of the cartridge to the highest recommended (2.2g IIRC), set your VTA so the arm tube is parallel to the record surface, set the anti-skate, and try it then. If the tracking is better on those inner grooves, reduce the tracking weight a bit, reset all the effected adjustments, and try again. When the problem starts to reappear, back track to the previous settings.

I don't know if any of that's going to be helpful, but it's somethings for you to consider.

Chris

I thought I was going mad but Chris L's XX2/Aro experience is exactly the same as mine. I even use the AT fluid sometimes.

This is really good advice.

BTW Chris, I don't know what you have the LP12 on but I got a huge lift when I put it on a Fraim.

regards

Dev

I would just like to reiterate that great care is need when using any form of liquid stylus cleaner. Take care to get as little as possible on the cantilever itself, try and restrict the liquid to the stylus. Any excess liquid you get on the cantilever will wreak long term havoc with the suspension in the cartridge.

Dev,

My LP12 currently resides atop a rather old (late '80's) Target turntable table. In my opinion, the sound from this is far better than it should be, miles better than any of its contemporary open metal frame supports, which is why it hasn't been a priority to change it.

Unfortunately the Fraim is a financial no-no for me, but my plan is, when I next have hi-fi funds available, to get Isoblue supports. I demmed them back-to-back with the Hutter, and I slightly preferred the Isoblue (the Hutter wasn't actually worse than it, just the Isoblue suited me better). I've never compared either of those to the Fraim directly, but I'm given to understand that they do approach the level of the Fraim - certainly into the territory where it's a case of which you prefer, rather than which is "better".

Chris

Whow! Thanks Chris for the info, very well articulated as well!

I have also found the XX2 to be bright for the first couple of LP sides before it warms up. I use the Zerodust to clean the needle. I played around with my setup last night and I think you are spot on with the temperature change as the temperature has droped considerably (10c) over the past 2 weeks. I increased the VTF slightly and the issue seems to have gone away. I am also getting better results from some mono LPs that previously didn't track very well.

Are there any creative solutions for adjusting the VTF/anti-skate correctly with the ARO? I currently put the antiskate on one of the post rings and adjust the VTF accordingly to each post ring. I could put some blue tak on the antiskate nylon wire to set the antiskate sit between the post rings. It's interesting because I have the HF test LP and the ARO performs poorly on the bias testing tracks compared to my prior RB900 but the ARO sounds much better when music is played. The RB900 could go through 3 of the 4 tracks with no problem while the ARO only makes it through the first track. How important is it in getting the VTF/Antiskate perfect on the ARO?

John

Glad to be of help, John.

As far as setting the VTF/anti-skate, I always start with the VTF, I find that is far more important to the performance than the anti-skate. Then I set the anti-skate to the nearest "notch" to the VTF I'm using (the anti-skate values per notch are in the Aro manual).

From then on, I'm afraid, it's just lots of listening and patience.

Personally, I've only ever used the guide notches for setting the anti-skate, and never bothered trying to get ultra-fine adjustment - and I usually end up with the anti-lower than the VTF would "suggest" (at the moment, my VTF is set to just over 2g, but I think the anti-skate is about 1.75g). Be careful using blue tac or anything like that, as it might hamper the free movement of the parts.

Again, personally, I haven't found the anti-skate to be ultra-critical on "real" records, and I'm wary of test records. They're fine to get a starting point, but I always end up fine tuning when I listen to music disks: basically, don't be overly concerned about the performance on the test record.

The hardest thing I found, coming from Rega arms, and my Dad's Linn arm, to the Aro, is that you need to trust your ears more than the "settings". You need to be more willing to let your ears tell you when there's a problem, and when it's performing well.

As usual, however, your mileage may vary!

All the best,

Chris

I recently tried the heavier counterweight with the Aro andn got really good results wit the XX2. You end up with the weight right near the pivot point which theoretically is a good thing, but the sound is exceptional and you get much more detail and retreival of inner groove detail. It is a really cheap and worthwhile upgrade.

Dev,

That's interesting. I have to be honest, I wouldn't have thought the heavy couterweight would have worked with the XX2. I mean, my oridinary counterweight isn't exacty a long way from pivot.

I'll have to look into, though, because the theory (getting the counterweight as close to the pivot point as possible) is, of course, sound.

I think a trip to my favourite shop might be in order!

Chris

Dev:

How many mm is your counterweight from the cup. Just curious how much closer it gets with the different counterweight.

Thanks
John

hockman

You have to put off azimuth weight altogether and use blob of bluetack instead. Obviously you regulate azimuth by changing blutack quantity

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Originally posted by hockman:
I am not sure whether the ARO arm is more difficult than other arms to get right. I haven't had problems with it until I installed a new Roksan Shiraz recently. It was a bitch to get right.

There is a real problem with the azimuth adjustment for my cartridge. The weight is set to the minimum (i.e. closest to the arm) but the azimuth needs to go the other way (i.e. more weight on the right side of the arm). But there is no adjusment for that.

Any suggestions appreciated.

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Hockman, are you sure your arm needs to go right with a Shiraz. Anyway you can try and bent the arm lifter (remove from arm first) to get some slight right azimuth adjustment, or maybe remove the small left weight altogether for a better option

quote:

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Originally posted by John:
Dev:

How many mm is your counterweight from the cup. Just curious how much closer it gets with the different counterweight.

Thanks
John

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I'd say about 2mm. It is a really big upgrade to the sound, you are not hearing the full potential of your XX2. Also if you have Mana dump it. The ferrousness of the Mana reacts badly with the alnicos in the XX2. I have done the dem LP12 on Mana vs Fraim with the XX2 and it is huge difference.

quote:

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Originally posted by hockman:
I am not sure whether the ARO arm is more difficult than other arms to get right. I haven't had problems with it until I installed a new Roksan Shiraz recently. It was a bitch to get right.

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I didn't mean the Aro was more difficult to set up, just that it's a bit different. It doesn't have the feel-good "sort of calibrated" counterweight and anti-skate adustments (which aren't very accurate anyway), so you are required to use your own ears a lot more.

quote:

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There is a real problem with the azimuth adjustment for my cartridge. The weight is set to the minimum (i.e. closest to the arm) but the azimuth needs to go the other way (i.e. more weight on the right side of the arm). But there is no adjusment for that.

Any suggestions appreciated.

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Well, the first thing I'd check is that the cartridge conforms to the range of specs supported by the standard Aro - it sounds to me as though it might be outside supported cartridge weight (just checked the Roksan web site, and it isn't outside the weight range, so it's not that).

Whatever the results of that are, I'd get in touch with Naim themselves and ask for advice. The reason I say to check the specs of the cartridge first, is that before they can help, Naim will need you to have that info available for them.

It's possible you may need the arm modified slightly to properly support the Roksan. I can't see anything on Roksan's web site that rings alarm bells, but I'd talk to Naim anyway.

Chris

quote:

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Originally posted by hockman:
The distortion is particularly acute on piano, so much so that I cannot just ignore and listen past it to the music.

I think the Shiraz may be very sensitive to settings e.g. VTA, azimuth etc. The instruction sheets claim that because of its "superior" stylus profile, it requires precise adjustments in these parameters to sound right. For example, the VTA is particularly low for the Shiraz to sound good (arm tube no longer parallel to record). The stylus also seems to love picking up all sorts of dust from the records.

quote:

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Hockman, are you sure your arm needs to go right with a Shiraz. Anyway you can try and bent the arm lifter (remove from arm first) to get some slight right azimuth adjustment, or maybe remove the small left weight altogether for a better option

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Yes I think so. I've tried removing the weight altogether, but that doesn't seem to help (goes the other way). The best solution I've reached so far is redress the arm cables so they stick out to the right of the head shell. Not an aesthetically attractive solution but seems to help. The wires coming out of the arm (to be plugged into the armboard) also needs to dressed carefully so that they do not impede the free movement of the ARO.

I just find it peculiar that an expensive arm like the ARO does not allow the required adjustment in azimuth. Maybe it's time for a P9. You can't adjust anything!

Thanks for your help.

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Hockman, Can you try the heavy counterweight? But to be honest piano distortion sunds like the tip is worn or wrong or something. If The aro was working well with your previous cartridge you should assume that the new catrridge is wrong as opposed to the arm. A bit difficult to diagnose without being there I'm afraid, but I agree it can be very frustrating.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dev B:
The ferrousness of the Mana reacts badly with the alnicos in the XX2QUOTE]

Dev-

Eureka! That's IT! I've been driving myself crazy because every time I add another level of Mana the VTF setting on my P9/XX2 goes up. To
offset this I've been adding extra counterweights. Currently I'm running three of
the heaviest Rega weights but I fear I won't be
able to go higher than Phase 4. This alnico/ferrous interaction never occurred to me.
Thanks!

tongue firmly in cheek,
Scott

Dev:

"Also if you have Mana dump it. The ferrousness of the Mana reacts badly with the alnicos in the XX2. I have done the dem LP12 on Mana vs Fraim with the XX2 and it is huge difference."

I am currently using a Mana 2 tier (phase 1) for my LP12 and 52. Sounds great to me! What changed sonically going to Fraim? My LP12 outperforms any CDP I've heard (musically). If I recall you stated your CDP outperforms your LP12 and you prefered the new 250 to 135s. This leaves me questioning your musical priorities and/or ears. I suspect my priorities are different. Maybe you are being led to different conclusions with SBLs. I have found the NBLs to far more revealing of what is happening upstream. The CDS2 actually sounds hard/harsh with NBLs. I will keep an open mind should I have the opportunity to compare.

Thanks for the info in the counterweight I will check it out.

John

quote:

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Originally posted by John:
Dev:

"Also if you have Mana dump it. The ferrousness of the Mana reacts badly with the alnicos in the XX2. I have done the dem LP12 on Mana vs Fraim with the XX2 and it is huge difference."

I am currently using a Mana 2 tier (phase 1) for my LP12 and 52. Sounds great to me! What changed sonically going to Fraim? My LP12 outperforms any CDP I've heard (musically). If I recall you stated your CDP outperforms your LP12 and you prefered the new 250 to 135s. This leaves me questioning your musical priorities and/or ears. I suspect my priorities are different. Maybe you are being led to different conclusions with SBLs. I have found the NBLs to far more revealing of what is happening upstream. The CDS2 actually sounds hard/harsh with NBLs. I will keep an open mind should I have the opportunity to compare.

Thanks for the info in the counterweight I will check it out.

John

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John,

This is of course subjective, but in my system

1. New 250 was better than 135's in my system
2. Fraim was categorically better than the Mana
3. XX2 helped by Heavy Counterwieght
4. XPS2 / S-Burndy lifts the CDS2 to be musically the equal of the LP12 without question.

These four upgrades were so immense in my system, I am not saying that the 135's or Mana were bad or anything, but the updates were much more significant and you realise that you were missing alot.

regards

Dev

ps. I agree we probably have different tastes priorities, but I'll stick with mine thanks

Dev

Interesting point on the 135's. I have active 135's with my SBL's and 2 x new 250's would not be too painfull if I sold the 135's second hand. Worthwhile upgrade?

Cheers

Steve

Dev,
Almost identical to my own findings (substitute CDX for CDS2). I'm looking for a non-ferrous wallshelf or support to sit on a Projekt rack, as Fraim is out at the mo. Any ideas?

Second, my anti-skate thread keeps slipping, from the second notch to between the first and second. Is this a problem or should I just ignore?

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Crouch:
Dev

Interesting point on the 135's. I have active 135's with my SBL's and 2 x new 250's would not be too painfull if I sold the 135's second hand. Worthwhile upgrade?

Cheers

Steve

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Steve,

I would certainly try it - also try the new SNAXO if you get a chance, it is mean't to be much better than old. But even with old SNAXO, I am sure you will find that the SBL's are smoother, have more weight, more gravitas, more majesty, more refinement and can go louder and not be shouty. In my room I can play at 10.30pm with out strain on CD and on some disks at 11pm. Also you can play at lower volumes - say 7.30pm - and everything (especially dynamics) are still intact.

This I attribute to the Fraim first (cos I couldn't do it with the Mana or the Hutter) and 250. There is no way I could do this before. If you want to come and have a listen you are welcome, give me a shout.

regards

Dev

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Metcalfe:
Dev,
Almost identical to my own findings (substitute CDX for CDS2). I'm looking for a non-ferrous wallshelf or support to sit on a Projekt rack, as Fraim is out at the mo. Any ideas?

Second, my anti-skate thread keeps slipping, from the second notch to between the first and second. Is this a problem or should I just ignore?

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Chris,

On the Anti-skate didn't JV once say something like it's something like less than 10% of the forces on a cart and things like tracking weight and VTA made a bigger difgference on a Aro.

I have had your problem on my first LP12 and the thing to do is to slowly bend the anti-skate thread holder so it is more upright - remove the arm tube - put one hand on the armboard - bend the holder more upright. It is slipping becasue it is on a too much of a slope.

On the projekt suppport, I would make a small decoupling table - Projekt used to do one - but you can fabricate one easily I suppose.

regards

Dev

Dev

I have got the new Snaxo and it is big improvement. I also got the new XPS2. I would like to take you up on your offer. I should be comimg up to London in the next couple of weeks and perhaps you could email me with your address etc and a few dates when you are free.

Cheers

Steve