Which Ring?

I never did finish my thoughts on the Krauss Ring. I've listened to it all the way through several times now, and have to agree with Alan Blyth (Gramophone, July 2004) that this is quite wonderful.

Great cast, great orchestra, superbly conducted and in remarkably good live sound from Bayreuth - presumably radio tapes from the time (1953).

Highly recommended.

Next up, probably Furtwaengler (as mentioned above) or the still unreleased Decca/Testament stereo Keilberth Bayreuth 1955 production.

Graham

The original Japanese version

I agree with Graham. This is a ring that should be in every Wagner's collection. I'm still not sure I'd choose it over Solti (if I had to have just one) and the rest of the Boehm ring is still sitting on my 'to be listened to' shelf.

The sound is often remarkably good (sometimes giving an illusion of stereo), and the singing is of a very high standard.

I'd say Siegfried is the highlight of this cycle and I found Gotterdammerung a little sluggish and disappointing.

Personally my next ring on CD is probably still going to be Goodall (as I suggested above). I'm tempted by a Furtwangler, but we seem to have a poor choice available: the cut la scala or the inferior cast.

I also have a hankering for the Boulez ring on DVD (just because I want to find out what made it so controversial) and I'm interesting to see what reviews Barenboim's effort gets as it is released (since the review of every other dvd ring in Gramophone has gone along the lines of: will have to do until Barenboim is rereleased).


regards,

Tam

Well, having just finished the Bohm ring and watched some more of the Levine ring of DVD I though I'd bring this thread out of retirement.

To Levine and the met first. While I didn't think Rheingold was half bad, I was utter board to tears by Walkure. I don't think I'd mind the sluggish pace of the music quite so much if the singing had been better but Hildegard Behrens is pretty inadequate as Brunhilde. To make matters worse, the blocking of the action is pretty unremittingly dull (which is a shame, because when done well, as in Scottish Opera's recent ring, this can make a huge difference). Good acting could also make up for a sluggish tempo, sadly with the possible exception of James Morris as Wotan, there is none of this on offer. Indeed, Behrens is so comically bad that I was in hysterics as Wotan put her into an enchanted sleep. And I thought the met was meant to be one of the world's top opera houses, this is an embarrassment. It wasn't all awful, the magic fire effect at the end was pretty impressive and at least Leving took the ride of the valkeries at a decent lick (something he failed to do quite dramatically when they relayed a more recent cycle on R3 a two years ago). I'll carry on with Siegfried and Gotterdammerung (and, as I said, Rheingold wasn't half as bad), but if things don't improve I think I shall be getting rid of this set. It also shakes my trust in the penguin guide, I cannot understand how this part of the cycle possibly can deserve a 3 star (maximum) review, when there are so many flaws. Granted issues such as tempo may be down to personal taste, but bad acting is bad acting.

I am more positive about the Bohm ring. Of the two others to compare it against that I own on disc, I suppose the more direct competitor is the Krauss cycle (since Solti's studio recording offers an entirely different approach). Well, over Krauss, Bohm gives us stereo sound, but oddly, this does not seem to count for as much as I expected it would and, oddly, the set has disappointed in terms of audio quality at times, when I was never bothered by the issues on the Krauss set. The highlights of Krauss are unchallenged by Bohm (especially the former's superb Siegfried), indeed, Bohm's songbird is deeply disappointing (Erika Koth) and Theo Adam is no Hans Hotter. That said, Nilsson does (particularly in Gotterdammerung) have the edge of Varney. Indeed, I think I prefer the final opera on Bohm's set to Krauss. That said, if I could only keep one of these two cycles in my collection I wouldn't hesitate to keep Krauss: his sound is remarkably good, his singers are, on the whole better and I think I find his interpretations more successful. To some extent, I find that Bohm is slightly caught between two stools: on the one hand he has nothing like the orchestral quality of the studio interpretations of the likes of Solti, on the other hand, I don't think his interpretation has the brilliance of Krauss.

Before writing this, I glanced back at Alan Blyth's gramophone reviews, and see how he waxes lyrical about how you feel like you're in Bayreuth with Bohm. I have to say, I didn't feel that way, more so given that in the middle of track 8 of the last disc (the start of the final scene) two different performances have very audibly been spliced together, which hardly fits with his, live, you're there, motif. Also, for reasons passing understanding the overture to the last act of Gotterdammerung is stuck on the end of disc 3 when I would clearly have fitted onto disc 4 with the rest of act 3. It's a small thing, but damned annoying.

So, if Krauss beats hotter, what about Solti. Well, I think I need to relisten to that again. I'm also wondering if my idea of picking up Goodall next is a good one (given he isn't the quickest on the block). Can anyone comment on the kind of speeds Furtwangler takes in his interpretations?


regards, Tam

Ah A real Wagner Thread! Sorry, but I could not resist that dear Tam! And you know how fond of of Wagner, I am (NOT)!

All the best from Fredrik

PS, Just off to see how old Schubert is doing!!

I suppose that's what I get for hijacking the schubert thread to talk about Wagner?

Hehe! Fredrik

Well, from what I've read on the Testament website, their Ring will beat all comers.

Graham

The new Gramophone reviews Siegfried, though, sadly, there was no sample on the CD That said, Alan Blyth still manages to rave about it:

"...you have a cast to dream about. Don't take my word for it: buy the discs and experience Wagner as he was supremely performed in those special days, and thank your lucky stars someone has had the persistence to unearth the recording."

It's due out tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to pick it up

regards, Tam

Tam

Well, I'm a sad bastard, so I'll await the reviews. And will Testament release the whole iot in a box after the fuss has died down?

Graham

I don't know. Testament don't seem to go in for box sets though.... they seem to operate pretty much a blanket policy of £10.99 per disc and that's it. Still, I don't really have the patience to wait for them to do that, if at all.

Also, for those who are interested, it's also being released on vinyl.

regards, Tam

Well, I've just picked it up and started playing. Yours for £43.99 (or less if you shop around online). Packaged beautifully, and, unusually for Testament it's in one of those cardboard boxes with the cds in slip-cases, each one bearing a photo of one of the cast.

The full libretto is included along with some very detailed notes.

But enough of all that, how does it sound? Very good. This is by far and away the best sound I've heard from a 50s Bayreuth recording (as you would well expect and it makes the likes of Krauss in 53 or Knappertsbusch in '56 sound horribly tinny in comparison). Indeed, the sound is probably comparable with Bohm in 67, though the singing is finer. I haven't yet listened to enough of it to compare the overall performance to either Krauss or Solti. However, the sound is not perfect, the strings do not sound quite right to my ears, especially in comparison with Solti (though this may be a function of the Bayreuth house and the way Wagner wanted it). The other issue is that there is sometimes a lot of sibilance on the voices and this is a great shame. However, those minor reservations aside, first impression: fantastic.

regards, Tam

Tam

As you said earlier, Alan Blyth seems hugely impressed.

A strange decision on Testament's part to release Siegfried first, though. I wonder why?

Graham

Well, I've only listened to the first act, and a few other bits, but so far I'm very impressed, especially when I put a little bit of the Krauss ring on for comparison, the sound is in another league. The first scene is not, musically, so good as Krauss, but come scene 2 things really get going. I'll reserve my judgement until I've listened to the rest.

As to the order, I don't really understand it either. Perhaps it wasn't all the same team and that was ready first, perhaps they are expecting sales of Siegfried to be the slowest and this way it builds the momentum better... it's a shame they don't tell us why though.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Tam

As you said earlier, Alan Blyth seems hugely impressed.

A strange decision on Testament's part to release Siegfried first, though. I wonder why?

Graham

Dear Graham and other Wagnerites,

Even I have been impressed with Alan Blyth's judgements, occasionally!

Siegfried first because it is the dullest of the lot. Mind I went off it some time ago, so you can take anything I say about R Wagner with the pinch of salt you no doubt think it deserves. At least I know it, but it will only be as a memory from now on. Once I saw a very funny thing written in our bass part over the begining of the the last Act of Twylight Of The Gods, which made me smile: " And may the Gods bless all who sail in her..." Wagner really wrote the most tedious bass parts in all music, and I believe these are only equalled in dullness by the viola parts!

Actually the dullest bass part I ever played was in the Third Piano Concerto of Rachmaninov, and some wag had written over the final cadence, which take several bars to resolve, "Hey boys, I think we have got the tune!"

Happy hunting through it from Fredrik

Fredrik,

I didn't know you were a bassist (if that is the correct term), but I like those comments. Mind you, I can sympathise, after all, Rheingold, basically just starts with one long continuous note for the basses doesn't it.

Siegfried, when done well, is far from dull, the Krauss reading is absolutely electric and in Scottish Opera's ring cycle it was perhaps the highlight. But you're right, that'll be why they did it first, if they started with Walkure, people might just get that and nothing else.

regards, Tam

Yep Tam,

Got to a freelance professional status, but never had the nerve to audition for a contract job. I am TERRIBLY nervous in a one to one situation, and was completely unflappable in the orchestra. Once I was in a smallish paid band (ad hoc) accompanying a Chorus, a Soprano, and a Tenor, and one of the items was Wei lieblich sind deine Wohnungen, the Fourth Section in Brahms' Requiem. Well the Choir did well but the conductor threw the whole band except me. I carried on quite happy, and he obviously thought the others would take heart. We stopped and restarted after death-looks all round! Funny moment though! I did not half get joshed for that afterwards in the pub later. Why didn't you stop, you made us look such bloody fools! Well I used to concentrate like mad, and the conductor completely failed to help the band start, making flapping jestiures at the Choir, so the bandsimply did not understand what he wanted, but I sensed it and just did it. Many were the times when I held things that went a bit rocky because of rotten conducting. It is far more common than most realise. In fact, to be a conductor, the first requirement is a serios over dose of self confidence. Musical talent is rather a long way down the list in all too many cases. I won't mention names, but sometimes these people get all the way to the top!


All the best from Fredrik

PS: I used to teach as well, and one of my pupils wants more lessons which will be nice. I gave up because of arthritis in my left hand, and I had no desire to play less than well. I got the 52 for what I sold the bass for. I think I am going to take up the harpsichord, just for my own fun...

I think you may be right about what is on the list for good conductors. That's one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Mackerras - his musical ability and scholarship is fantastic. I was at a very interesting talk he gave at last year's Edinburgh festival where he talked about how varied the characteristics of a good conductor - in that what makes for a great conductor is that they inspire the orchestra but the reasons why they do that will be very different indeed.

One of the most exciting concerts I have ever attended was the Cleveland Orchestra at the 2004 festival. Welser-Most had the basses arranged in a row at the back of the orchestra on a raised dais and the way the drove the music forward (particularly given the section's, as the rest of the orchestra's, precision) was phenomenal.

As far as interesting bass parts go, the only thing that springs to mind is, of course, the 3rd movement of Mahler's first symphony which is rather lovely.

regards, Tam

(Perhaps we should move this to another thread!)

Well, to get this thread back on track, I have finished listening to Siegfried, and very enjoyable it was too. Indeed, I'd suggest it's a must for any serious Wagnerian. In particular, I do not believe that Hans Hotter has ever been caught finer on disc. Nor, for that matter Varnay (is there a stereo account of her other than this available?). Whether the same is true of Windgassen, I'm not as sure (see my comments about the Kruass ring further down). The most significant reservation I have is that the voices, right at the end of act 3, do distort a little, particularly Varnay's, and given the quality with which they are captured elsewhere, this is a real shame.

Some general comments first, Act 2 is especially fine, and Fafner is wonderfully played and captured. Keilberth goes at quite a pace and there are no moments whatsoever where the action drags at all, indeed, in one or two places one wishes he might slow down ever so slightly. As suggested above, the strings are a little harsh in places but the brass is very well caught as is percussion and the recording is so fine that you would hardly believe and audience was present (this especially impressive given the quality of the other 50s Bayreuth performances I've heard, and the less said about Furtwangler/Scala in this regard the better!).

One other minor reservation: the included booklet, while including an interesting foreword and essay, biographies of the cast, some nice pictures and a full libretto (in English and German only), does not contain a synopsis. This doesn't matter to me per se - I have plenty and know the plot very well, still it is the kind of oversight one does not expect from testament. I would also have liked a little more detail on how much work the Testament people needed to do on the original tapes. While it is clearly live it is not quite so live as the Krauss (they recorded the second cycle - though they could only patch certain bits since Varnay and others only appeared in the first); they also had the taping of one rehearsal to call upon. The booklet suggests only 21 such edits (which were mainly between the primary and back up tape for the original performance. They've done a good job as I can't detect them (as I can in the Bohm cycle).

So, where does this Siegfried stand in relation to the competition. Clearly I'm not going to compare it to everything, indeed I'm going to use the same three comparisons as Blyth did in his Gramophone review:

The finest 'live' Siegfried' I'd heard before - Krauss at Bayreuth in 1953
The finest 'live' stereo Siegfried - Boehm at Bayreuth in 67
The finest studio recording - Solti and the VPO.

Others may disagree as to whether those truely are the finest in their categories.

So, against Boehm first. Well, the sound on the Keilberth ring, as one might expect is not quite so fine, it is a little harsh in places and there is much more sibilance on the voices. Also, in one or two very loud points there is a little distortion. That said, they've done a remarkable job, especially considering how new stereo was at the time. The singing, overall, is finer for Testament, and one thing, more than anything else, decides it in favour of Keilberth: he has Hans Hotter whereas Boehm only has Theo Adam, and, as a result the opera suffers. Whether you prefer Nilsson or Varnay is probably a personal choice, both are exceptionally fine. Windgassen probably sings better for Testament, though the sibilance and distortion (mentioned above) are issues. Still, if you want a live, stereo Siegfried it is, at the end of the day, a pretty easy choice: Testament.

So, what about Krauss, which, as I've said above, is probably my favourite Siegfried on disc. Well, early on in act one I found Keilberth disappointingly lacking in energy in comparison but as soon as the Wanderer arrived those doubts began to disappear. I would venture to suggest Hotter has never been caught so finely on disc and it is a joy to listen to his scene - you wish he stays longer! Things only get better with Act two as we have the Wotan/Albrich confrontation and some of the most lovely woodbird music I've ever heard. Then Fafner awakes in a superbly characterised performance. I put Krauss back on for comparison and it underscores how significantly improved the Keilberth sound is. Also that the two interpretations aren't too far apart - indeed, according to the liner notes the two shared rehearsals when the shared the ring cycles in '53 and got along very well indeed. I suppose the Krauss is marginally finer musically (save for Hotter who is magical), but I think Keilberth's combination of performance and sound quality makes it the winner. The only thing that makes me think twice, is that I don't think Erda is among the finest performances on disc, that aside, the beginning of act 3 is very fine.

So what of Solti. Well, orchestral playing for Solti is better recording - a live recording will never sound like that, which, perhaps is the point. I wouldn't want to be without either (and the one I would listen to would depend on what I wanted to hear). Keilberth's singers perform better than Solti's and, in many ways the performance is more compelling. Of course, Solti has a critical weakness in the Woodbird (one of my favourite parts of Siegfried - Joan Sutherland's diction is absolutely abysmal), that said, the recording of the Part for Keilberth isn't perfect either and I suspect nothing is ever going to have the magic of the scottish opera staging of that part.

This set should be owned by all serious Wagnerians (along with the likes of Solti, Krauss, and Furtwangler). I think if you're on the studio side of the studio/live set, you'll still prefer Solti, for people like me who sit on the fence, you'll want both, for people wanting it live, this has to be a first choice - if you fall into that category buy these discs, buy them now! Put another way, at the moment I have both Solti and Krauss on my ipod, if the rest of the cycle is as good, it will be Solti and Keilberth.

I cannot wait to hear the rest of the releases: HURRY UP PLEASE TESTAMENT!

regards, Tam

Tam

Thanks for that.

I'd venture to suggest that anyone seriously interested in the music will, in future, have to own four Ring cycles: Furtwaengler (RAI, which still doesn't seem to be available on the new Gebhardt pressing); Keilberth (once they're all out); Krauss (but will his grossly inferior sound as against Keilberth put him out of the running, paricularly as Keilberth has many of the same singers caught in better sound?); and Solti, with his extraordinary sound and (maybe slightly lesser extraordinary?) cast.

Graham

Graham, I'd agree with that almost entirely. I think, if Keilberth is as consistently good, then he will put Krauss out of the running.

As far as the Furtwangler/Rome ring, I do wonder if it's the top Furtwangler recommendation. I should caveat that, though I picked it up a little before the Keilberth ring (incidentally, is the Gebhardt pressing vinyl?; I have it on EMI on CD). However, from what I have listened to, the orchestral playing is decidedly second rate, especially when compared to his Scala ring which has the added bonus of Flagstad as Brunhilde and can be had for under £20 if you shop around.

regards, Tam

Tam

I must confess to being a bit in the dark over which Furtwaengler recording. I only have his VPO EMI recording of Valkyrie, made a couple of weeks before his death. So I can't really comment on Rome or Scala, but rather assume that one has to have one or other (or both).

Scandalously, I have to confess that the one I listen to most is Solti (which I have on highly prized Teldec DMM LPs and Decca's most recent CD transfers). The sound, the sound!!!!!!

That said, I'm listening at the moment to the Krauss CDs of the end of Rheingold. Nobody will ever beat the Solti for the end of that!

Graham

Graham,

You should really pick up the Furtwangler/Scala. I picked up my copy new for £18.99 from an ebay seller and while the sound is poor (poorer than Krauss) it is wonderful. I'll post my thoughts on the Furtwangler/Rome set when I've got round to listening to it, but it's next up.

As to whether Keilberth replaces Krauss, it is worth noting that the cost of the entire Krauss cycle is roughly equal to the Keilberth Siegfried, so as a budget choice it must still reign.

Agree with you about the sound of Solti, and in particular Rheingold - that was the first bit of Wagner I ever listened to and it hooked me right in. Mind you, Rheingold is one of the highlights of the Krauss cycle. I am a little worried in that regard for Keilberth since the Knappertsbusch cycle of '56 has some very odd sounding effects during the descent into Nibelheim.

regards, Tam

Dear Graham,

For what it is worth I have the last release on LP of The Rome Ring, under Furtwangler. If you want it, it's yours for nothing if you fetch it from Hereford.

Only a thought, but the set in very fine condition.

Fredrik

Fredrik

What a kind offer and I'm sorry to have been so tardy in replying (I do have a sort of a life away from this Forum).

I'm going to decline, though.

First, I'm not likely to be in Hereford at any time in the near future.

Second, and much more to the point, I hardly ever listen to opera on LPs any more, when CD is just so much better. Most operatic Acts can now play uninterrupted over a CD side, which avoids breaking concentration as you jump up to change over discs. Not quite the case for all Wagner, I agree (although in this respect the latest DG C Kleiber Tristan is such a huge leap forward over all previous incarnations - on the original LPs Tristan actually died twice!).

I fully understand that you're not looking to profit from this, but why not put the set on eBay? If it's in good condition, I'm sure that there would be interest. A few more £££ towards that pair of DBLs!

All best wishes.

Graham