Official DAC Argument Thread

Patrick,

While I can see the good intentions here, perhaps a bit less of the "fight" and a bit more of the reasoned argument and mutual respect for each others point of view is called for...

Let's all try to keep an open mind (and open ears) on this one, Ok?

It's easy to hear...

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:

While I can see the good intentions here, perhaps a bit less of the "fight" and a bit more of the reasoned argument and mutual respect for each others point of view is called for...

Well, it doesn't hurt to hope. So here's hoping for better late than never.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
It's easy to hear...

Oi... My nose looks nothing like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Duly noted Richard.

I am not trying to be pejorative in any manner. It seems that every DAC/cable/transport thread devolves into this discussion.

I was hoping we could consolidate it into one thread.

Just planting seeds....

FYI, just to kick things off.... I have heard differences between a few sources. Others not so. Almost every time there is a SQ delta it is apparent in the sibilance of cymbals and vocalized "ess" sounds.

This is much more apparent with hi res material although it exists in redbook as well.

In listening to some nice soft vocal music, the difference is perceivable between most sources. In particular, Copeland's hihat on The Police's Shadows in The Rain shows the delta clearly.

I know it shouldn't happen, and maybe I am not bit perfect, although i would bet I am. The point is, if I am not outputting bit perfect signal most are likely not either.

If bit perfection is difficult, transports sounding different is very relevant.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Almost every time there is a SQ delta it is apparent in the sibilance of cymbals and vocalized "ess" sounds.

If you have me off your hidden list for a bit how would you describe the differences?

quote:

Oi... My nose looks nothing like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my God, Andy! Do you mean you have found only one discrepancy?

Ear colour?

Andy,

Your last name isn't Bernard is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yxEA&feature=related

UNSHUN

Andy,

I have found the difference to be "too much sibilance" on the Transit and DVD player. USB and Juli@ correct this.

As I cannot play hires from the iPhone I haven't done discriminating listening with it.

RESHUN

PC if you down sample from 24/96, go to 16/48 instead of 16/44 for the Iphone. The interpolation seems better.

Thanks JS. I have really only used the iPhone to play around with upnp. Unfortunately I would say this has the poorest SQ of them all. I think that may be due to other things than the iPhone in and of itself.

why does naim not settle this once and for all?

they have the expertise, equipment and facilities to carry out a truly objective test - one that does not involve humans using their ears.

As I have said ad nauseam and been ignored ad nauseam why not measure the sound waveform produced by the speakers in a reference system using different transports or cables through the ndac and see if there is any difference in the sound waveform produced?

naim won't do it of course.

So let the "experts" repeat the technical arguments again, and again, and...

if it was even feasible to do so, will you pay for the tests Derry?

It is feasible, easy even.

Why would/should I pay?

If the tests prove the case, then naim will sell loads of transports and cables.

If the tests prove there is no difference then red faces all round but punters will save cash on expensive transports and cables.

Nothing and no one (but Andy and a few less vocal members) suggest that all transports will sound identical.

The White Paper (my only source of knowledge on the subject) DOES NOT mention anything to the contrary. In fact it specifically uses words/phrases such as "minimizes", "significantly reduces" etc...

Also they specifically did not include a traditional USB input due to the connection to a "noisy electrical environment".

Clearly Naim DOES think that sources will sound different or they wouldn't have this reservation.

And regarding your "test", do you have any clue how expensive and difficult it would be to perfectly measure the output of a speaker in an effort to measure source comparisons?

It would be easier to measure the DACs digital output, which i think the White Paper describes, and I am sure Naim has done.

Do you really think Naim would develop, market and sell two different CD transports if they couldn't hear (yes HEAR, NOT measure) a difference between the two?

Wouldn't they be better off screaming from the rooftops that the Naim DAC is completely source independent?

Do you REALLY think Naim has data to the contrary but are withholding it and basically lying to everyone?

Come on....
-Patrick

Given this quote from the Naim website, do you think they are scrambling together an audio lab for your proposition?

"The “best” for Naim however isn’t measured in obscure technical parameters, rather, through the experience of owning, using and enjoying."

Let's say you do the test and conclude the measurements indicate no difference. However, you continue to hear the difference when the equipment is hooked up normally and used for reproducing music. Do any of you honestly believe you are going to talk yourselves into thinking you are just imagining the difference because of the measurements and will reject the desire to use the "better" transport?

Sorry to repeat what I said in the other thread, but...

I wish that Naim would answer a very simple question: which Naim product with a S/PDIF digital output sounds best when used as a transport with the Naim DAC?

I think it is a perfectly fair question to ask, but it falls on deaf ears.

This makes me think that

1) The Naim DAC is a good upgrade for all Naim products with a S/PDIF digital output, but

2) There is no objective way to rank these Naim products for sound quality when used as a transport for the Naim DAC.

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
...
Do you really think Naim would develop, market and sell two different CD transports if they couldn't hear (yes HEAR, NOT measure) a difference between the two?
...

Hi Patrick -

Yes, I believe they would. Because the CD5 XS and CDX2 are not strictly transports. They sound very different through their analog outputs.

By introducing S/PDIF output for these two CD players, all Naim is saying is that the Naim DAC is a viable upgrade path for each of them.

Hook

Dave,

I would simply conclude that the source is not affecting the digital stages. Any SQ deltas would need to be explained in other manners e.g. RF injection, connected noisy source, vibrations from noisy source (and its variable proximity), all of the possible affects on the analog output stage, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:


2) There is no objective way to rank these Naim products for sound quality when used as a transport for the Naim DAC.

Hook

There is no objective NEED for such a list.

Did Naim ever come up with a list of how their various preamps rank against one another? Then prove it with tech data?

Did Naim ever chime in with a 72 vs 102 statement claiming on to be better than the other?

Or is it best to let people decide for themselves, with their own ears, rooms, and racks?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

I know it shouldn't happen

I agree. But it does. It's like living in 1985 all over again. The debate was the same then and tens of thousands, possibly more weird and wonderful cables, plus permutations of transports and DACs flew out of the shops. Ironic that (according to some commentators) the audio economy should have been supported and developed by the one sector of society least qualified to - the deaf. My deafness hasn't improved since then but I've had lots of fun under the illusion that I've been listening to music.

Patrick,

Just curious as to how some would react to measurements opposing what they experience vs the actual test outcome;-)

I honestly don't believe anyone out there will deny their senses despite the natural desire to be "enlightened" with science always telling us what must be.

regards,

dave

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Derry,
Naim's own transports sound diff through there DAC.
They tell you at the shows.
Go and LISTEN at a Naim dealers.
You have ears, Use them.
I am off to drink some bleach.

Hi Munch -

I am really glad you said that, because I have asked this same question in several of these threads: Has Naim ever said that their own transports for the DAC sound different?

Nobody, until now, has ever replied.

So, at these shows, was it a Naim employee delivering an official Naim position? Can you recall who it was?

And any idea why, if they are willing to say this at shows, then why they haven't put in writing somewhere? If they aren't willing to post here, then how about somewhere, anywhere on their web site? Why not say so in a product description, or a news release?

Is it to much to ask for Naim be consistent in all their forms of customer communication?

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:


2) There is no objective way to rank these Naim products for sound quality when used as a transport for the Naim DAC.

Hook

There is no objective NEED for such a list.

Did Naim ever come up with a list of how their various preamps rank against one another? Then prove it with tech data?

Did Naim ever chime in with a 72 vs 102 statement claiming on to be better than the other?

Or is it best to let people decide for themselves, with their own ears, rooms, and racks?

I would argue that they have always had such a list. It is called the Price List. And it shows clearly how Naim ranks their components. And Naim does prove it with tech data. They publish lots of info about how their products can be distinguished in terms of design, quality of parts, etc.

When we hear a difference between a 100 series and a 500 series, we have lots of data to help us understand the why our listening experiences were different, and why one costs more than the other.

This Naim DAC transport issue is a different case. The Price List doesn't help, because it is not related to the transport function alone. We cannot infer from price list that the CDX2 is a better transport than the CD5 XS, because the product is priced as a whole.

C'mon, doesn't it bug you just a little that, like Munch said, Naim is willing to make these statements at shows, but apparently, they are not willing to put in writing?

Hook