Wood filler for Isobariks

Now I will be honest, I havn't attempted to place 10kg (where four spikes disperse 40kg) to a point on the repairs to my laminate, but what I can say its a lot harder than standard wood filler, and comes in many colours.

its about 8 quid, comes with an alcahol cleaner and the tube of stuff, you need to work very quickly with it because it goes off fast, its hard! Its for floors!!

The other option is to cut a neat hole and fill with wood proper. But I would say thats a professional job.

Bondaglass Voss make a 2 pack polyester wood filler in black (Bonda - Ebony). It may not stop spikes sinking in a bit but its harder than most wood and a lot harder than MDF or chipboard.

If you can get the Briks upsidedown without damaging your back or the drivers then you could fill the holes with Araldite

Garyi may well be right but I would instinctively assume that anything (of this nature) available in B&Q to be overpriced rubbish.

If you need more help let me know - where are you?

Alex

[This message was edited by Alex S. on SUNDAY 16 December 2001 at 08:28.]

Its just appeared for distribution through B&Q and Wikes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
What are the Brik cabinets made of? Are yours black?

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To be honest, I'm don't really know what the veneer is. See attachment.

The cabinets are MDF, although it's a somewhat softer material than modern MDF, or so I'm told.

quote:

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Bondaglass Voss make a 2 pack polyester wood filler in black (Bonda - Ebony). It may not stop spikes sinking in a bit but its harder than most wood and a lot harder than MDF or chipboard.

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This hardness issue concerns me somewhat.

It is now very obvious to me that the Isobarik desperately needs the energy in the cabinet to be transmitted out of the speaker and through the stand. I presume that a material with similar characteristics to the MDF will best transfer this energy to the spikes (by avoiding an impedance mismatch).

Of course, such a material will also be soft, and I'll have the same problem again in the future. The design of the mini-spike makes this more of an issue, as it's profile is something like this:-

______/\______

The mini-spike is only about 3mm in height while the pillar is some 2cm in diameter. (See following posting for detail of the spike/column arrangement).

quote:

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If you can get the Briks upsidedown without damaging your back or the drivers then you could fill the holes with Araldite

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This has been suggested to me by two other people, so I'm quite tempted to go with this.

I had been thinking of doing the job with speakers on their sides. I guess you're saying the Araldite will flow before it sets?

I guess I can manage to get them upside down.

quote:

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Garyi may well be right but I would instinctively assume that anything (of this nature) available in B&Q to be overpriced rubbish.

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Hmm, (somewhat) overpriced I wouldn't mind - £8 to sort this issue out would be money well spent. Of course rubbish is what I'm trying to avoid, and B&Q have always struck me as rip-off mercheants.

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin Payne:
(See following posting for detail of the spike/column arrangement).

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This is a blow-up of the spike arrangement, showing the from columns and the back spikes.

cheers, Martin

they sounded bloody good.

if this is not relevant, apologies.

enjoy

ken

Look lets get over the B&Q snobbery here. I will reiterate my point. This product is avilable all over the place, I just happen to have seen it in B&Q, its not their product and it costs around 8 quid everywhere.

Its made by a company called Unika.

Araldite will probably be harder, but this stuff is bloody hard, that was my only point.

In your place, I would consider filling the indentations flush with the surrounding surface, and then using small squares of some sort of hard, smooth, thin laminate over the filled area. You need the spikes to be able to make a tiny "pip" in the surface, put no more. Take a centre-punch to your hardware store, and use it to test for "spike-suitability quotient". Something like the laminate which coveres Mana boards would probably be ideal; Mana spikes are very sharp, and they don't sink in at all, even under considerable load. Bear in mind that the point loads to which the underside of your Briks are being subjected here must be in the order of tons per square inch -- just think what stiletto heels do to hardwood floors...

You could also try slabs of 10mm float glass the same size as the Briks' bottom panels. The cabinets would just "suck" themselves onto the glass and stay put. Could be interesting...?

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

One sets rapidly (a few minutes).

The other will take six hours to set, and 24 hours to be really hard.

The spike holes are several mm deep, so I'm not sure if I'm going to be OK to fill these in a single application?

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether either type is more suited to my application?

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by garyi:
Good lord, those things are big arn't they. Are they bigger than DBLs?

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Depth is slightly greater the same (41.5cm vs 40).

Width is about half (38cm vs 65).

Height (on stands) is somewhat less (100cm vs 120). The speaker itself is 76cm tall.

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Look lets get over the B&Q snobbery here.

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Sorry, Gary, I just can't pass up any opportunity to slate B&Q. Just after I posted I re-read your comment, and saw that you had used this in a professional capacity. Homebase also had this stuff, although it's £9 there. That's a price I'm happy to pay if it will resolve this problem.

Can you tell me if I can fill holes several mm deep. Will this stuff crack if I try to apply too-thick a layer? Would I need to use many applications?

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Ellis-Jones:
Surely what you need to do is to make some sort of modification which returns your speakers as closely as possible to their ex-factory state (and therefore sound), while lessening the chance of the same thing happening again over time.

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Yup, exactly.

I'm more concerned with performance than ultimate durability. I don't care if I have to fill them again in three or four years time.

quote:

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In your place, I would consider filling the indentations flush with the surrounding surface, and then using small squares of some sort of hard, smooth, thin laminate over the filled area.

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My concern is that I'm trying to remove a layer of isolation, and this sounds like it might put another one in.

quote:

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You could also try slabs of 10mm float glass the same size as the Briks' bottom panels. The cabinets would just "suck" themselves onto the glass and stay put. Could be interesting...?

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I suspect the bottom of the Briks is not flat enough for this to work.

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin Payne:
Quote:

Can you tell me if I can fill holes several mm deep. Will this stuff crack if I try to apply too-thick a layer? Would I need to use many applications?

cheers, Martin

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One application is OK, it sets by chemical reaction not by drying out.
If you've never used it before try mixing up a little bit without using it to get used to its properties.
The quick set is less hard.
A metal powder loaded version is sold under the name of "chemical metal".

quote:

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Originally posted by sceptic:
One application is OK, it sets by chemical reaction not by drying out.
...
The quick set is less hard.

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I presume you're talking about Araldite.

Thanks, this is exactly the info I was looking for. I guess it will be the 'precision' version rather than the 'quick set', then.

cheers, Martin

The best wood filler is car body filler its cheap, hard, quick and will take stain, but if its underneath you will not see it. Araldite isn't hard enough to take the weight.

pete

Mark E-J's idea is a very good one (apart from the glass).

Pete, I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Fully cured Araldite will be much harder than car body filler. The Bonda wood filler I suggested and car body filler are similar (both 2 pack polyesters) but the Bonda is a bit harder and designed for wood so better in this instance. Polyesters will flex rather than fracture but may not be hard enough.

Martin, There are Professional epoxies available if you really want to do this job properly.

Alex

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
The Bonda wood filler I suggested and car body filler are similar (both 2 pack polyesters) but the Bonda is a bit harder and designed for wood so better in this instance. Polyesters will flex rather than fracture but may not be hard enough.

Martin, There are Professional epoxies available if you really want to do this job properly.

Alex

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Alex,

would I be likely to get the Bonda locally (DIY stores, f'rinstance).

What is the difference between the Professional epoxies and the Bonda. Is it going to be a lot of extra hassle?

Thanks for all your advice. Bought the araldite today, and had a play tonight, but if something better can be achieved...

cheers, Martin

Products to discuss are the Bonda Polyester filler I mentioned and Epoxy Casting resins which you could pour into the cavities so long as you can get the Briks upside-down. Casting resin will be harder than Araldite and should have better impact strength.

Good luck or, if you're in London, ask me to do the job for you, which I would happily do in exchange for a glass of wine (I have the necessary ingredients). But I will not lift Briks!

Alex

garyi - No offence about B&Q, just happens to be my local DIY store - Do they ever have anything I actually want? No.

If Martin proceeds to fill the holes in his Briks with some type of hard filler, surely that is no different that having a coin placed between the Briks and the spike.

It must be a case of the Brik being placed on something hard (be it coin or filler) which in turn is on top of the spike or am I missing something.

Regards

Mick

quote:

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Chaps

If Martin proceeds to fill the holes in his Briks with some type of hard filler, surely that is no different that having a coin placed between the Briks and the spike.

It must be a case of the Brik being placed on something hard (be it coin or filler) which in turn is on top of the spike or am I missing something.

Regards

Mick

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Mick,

we tried it with the spikes up into the wood of the speaker, and compared to coins providing isolation.

The former sound was MUCH better.

I think that the coins tweak was masking other setup deficiencies in my system, and the spikes were also sinking in too far. I'm quite expecting a big upgrade when I can take them out.

It does appear that the coins are providing isolation, but this is not a good thing. This impedes the ability of the stand to drain vibrational energy out of the speaker.

It makes me wonder just how much the mana stand could improve this function. I now believe this could well be a big upgrade. Still, I've not heard it, and I think it's just become somewhat irrelevant for me.

cheers, Martin

The Post Office (Consignia) has NEVER run out of stamps. There is a secret underground location where they are stored and its the size of an ocean liner. There is more chance of you winning the lottery than not being able to buy a 2nd class stamp.

Incidently, the volumes of stamps is reducing due to an increase in franked mail. Also the public seem to prefer 1st class and sales of 2nd class are also reducing as a percentage of overall sales.

I think the ST was ill informed.

Regards

Mick

Please keep us informed of your progress on this.

I may get a replica of the Mana fabricated by a local factory. £450 is just plain ludicrous.

Regards

Mick

The bog standard 1st or 2nd clamp stamp which you buy for general use is called a definitive stamp. It is a plain stamp with the head of HRH on it.

You can buy a special edition which has a festive link over the Christmas period. These stamps are also purchased by collectors and by the sound of it, you are about to become a budding philatelist. You will become uncontrollably excited when a new edition is released and you may start saving up every Christmas stamp that has ever been released.

I wish you well in your new hobby.

Regards

Mick

By strict instruction of HRH, the only living persons allowed to appear on a British stamp (certainly not Anne Widdecombe) are members of the Royal family. This convention has been most strictly enforced since stamps were first printed.

During 1999 and 2000, 100 sets of stamps were issued, aimed at collectors and were named the Millenium issue. We sold millions of them.

Each stamp, was scrutinised for an average of 2000 hours by a select panel (this is why British stamps are so collectable) and a Freddie Mercury edition was released to commemorate the pop music industry's contribution to the UK way of life.

The stamp depicted Freddie in his white trousers and yellow jacket, arm stretched out in typical pose and in the background, the size of a pinhead, was Roger Taylor on the drums. Roger Taylor is still alive and all I will say is that some of us had a rather uncomfortable day or to, in the knowledge that HRH was most annoyed at this breach of convention. In fact, she was livid.

Also another stamp depicting the industrial revolution, had a picture of a factory, with a chimney belching out smoke. Unfortunately the head of HRH was just above the smoke, giving the impression that she was similar to a Genie in the lamp.

HRH was furious and made her displeasure public knowledge. Again one or two of us had a few sleepness nights. Being summoned to the Palace for a dressing down is not the most pleasant of experiences. I am forbidden to comment on the outcome.

It is little stories such as this which will make you forget about Hifi and turn your attention to the worlds most patronised hobby......stamp collecting. I wish you well and hope you will buy many stamps which will help to earn my annual bonus.

Regards

Mick

I took a couple of 1p pieces, and placed a 5mm thick layer of araldite on top. I left them to dry for 24 hours, then tried briefly replacing one of the existing 1p coins with the araldited version.

Because this was thicker than the standard coin it was carrying 20kg+, and it resisted being indented by the front spike-let pretty well.

By this evening it will have had 36 hours to set, and I will leave the test pieces in place overnight. If this test is passed I will do the Briks, and leave to set for 48 hours before re-seating them.

Thanks for all your help, everyone.

Merry Christmas, Martin

P.S. all this fuss - wouldn't be a problem with floor-standers. Hmm, now there's an idea.

A coin is not flat on either side. It therefore provides an unpredictable interface both with the spike (soft metal to hard metal) and the item being supported.

Also, unless the coin is somehow fixed to the item being supported so that it becomes "part of it", it constitutes another element in an already complex system, and will therefore have unpredictable effects.

The ideal interface material would be slightly softer than the spikes, non-sonorous, thin and predictably flat. Then it could be bonded to the cabinets in the right places, and become "part of the box".

Laminate.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)