Mana vs Fraim

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Anybody done an objective comparison of these

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it's a little difficult to do as mana is sold direct.

Mana is now sold through some dealers ... and there are some (like Adventures in Hi Fi in Wigan) who carry both Mana and Fraim.

I had a three way demo of Fraim vs Mana vs QS Ref earlier this year, when I owned standard QS.

They each give significantly different presentations, each having some appeal ... so the only real way to decide is to do the demo yourself.

But for a very crude descriptions of the differences I would say

QS gave a smoother presentation
Fraim gave a more neutral presentation
Mana gave a more lively presentation

I suspect it also makes quite a difference what kit your putting on the stands too ... some kit make work particularly well on one type of stand.

I went for the Fraim as it seemed to give me exactly what I wanted.

Brilliant idea, Christopher.

I especially admire the "objective" touch. No one had thought of that before.

I'm glad you didn't go easy on yourself by using the search bike.

Herman

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Looking for something to replace my Quad

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You mean there's a Quad support as well. How does that compare with Mana and Fraim?

David

This thread should get a few out of the wood work !

Bob

Linn from Scotland,
Naim from Salisbury,
Mana from Heaven . . .?

"This thread should get a few out of the wood work "

Nah, they only invade other threads about something completely unrelated!

Fraim is Laim, get some Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana, Mana...



naheed

maybe I'm deaf. But.
When I was looking to replace the Base I did actually get to hear the difference between how an LP12(aro/tekaitora/geddon/groove) sounded on Hutter v Mana (soundtable?) v Fraim in a direct comparison.

I bought the Fraim

And well over a year later I have no regrets at all (well apart from a crushed ball or two.Ahem!)

As for the CDS2? It sounds unbelievable on the Fraim but on Mana? Ewwwwww. Let's not go there.
(Mana was devised to max out and give life to the LP12 and not an already sprightly CD player yeah?)

Actually (and before the baying hounds arrive) I really wish I could afford to run the two together and if I won the lottery? Maybe I would.

P

Good stuff, you've done the comparison, and bought what worked for you, and thats all that matters... enjoy...

naheed

Blimey

Err

Thanks Naheed

You DO use Mana right?

P

I am now going to rise to the bait of a stand debate whilst remaining neutral, objective and impartial and without invoking vitriolic responses from any camp. Is this really possible? I doubt it but here
goes...

I have both Mana and Fraim as part of my system and have found them both to be excellent products. I use the Fraim under my electronics and the Mana under my TT. Both stands have brought major improvements over the previous sound org stands I used.

When I was using 82/SC/250 I borrowed a 52, Fraim and 135's for a week to decide on my next upgrade. In terms of overall preference and improvement in my system the order was 52->Fraim->135. I bought the 52 and Fraim. I still use a 250. It's difficult to describe the improvements the Fraim brings without misinterpretation. I can best describe it as enhancing and building on the improvements you get going from 82 to 52 and bringing some of the bass extension, grip and control that replacing a 250 with 135's seems to give. Basically, it didn't change the character of the system - Steve C used the term neutral and I guess that's a fair term to use.

I got a phase 4 Mana stand secondhand as an impulse purchase with some Bariks and found that it gave such a boost to the performance of my TT that I went and bought another 3 levels. I'm not averse to getting some more. The difference this made is bigger than the Fraim and not as easy to call neutral because it shifts the performance upwards so much. I got extra detail (more than Vallhalla to Armageddon), frequency extension in both directions, better control and resolution, more PRat and better dynamics (a couple of source/amp upgrades worth). Basically I got a much better LP12.

I have tried the LP12 on the (loaded with electronics) Fraim and whilst it works ok it doesn't sound nearly as good as the Mana (not as open, doesn't flow as well - sort of compressed sounding). It may well have been better on an empty Fraim since the mass of the amps probably doesn't help. Obviously this tells you nothing about the relative merits of each stand for electronics and I am not in a position to do a direct A/B comparison.

I am in no position to say which is best for electronics but I want to make a point which may explain some of the differences of opinion. I have found with both stands that they need to settle for a period of time (on my wooden suspended floor) before they give their best. The Fraim takes a few hours, the Mana a couple of days. Both get better over this settling period, the Mana dramatically so. If you want to be sure you are hearing them at their best take account of this. Both stands also needed some attention to detail and experimentation with setup before I was able to get the best out of them. Fraim is simpler (harder to get it wrong due to the design), the Mana took me 3 builds before I was able to get a stable setup that I think is approaching its full potential (and I've done it a few times since then to make sure I've got it right).

One other thing to be aware of is that when I went to phase 7 under the TT it revealed some setup issues I had with the TT (tracking weight out) and the amplification (hard edge and sounding strained at higher volumes - resolved by changes to the 240v supply).

I now have a system which which I am (finally) satisfied with. It's expensive and has taken a long time to get here but I think I could stop the upgrade cycle now (if I really had to). I no longer care which stand is 'best', I'm happy with the combination I have. If I get the chance to experiment with a Mana rack I will. It may be better, worse or simply different but I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about it. For those that don't have a good quality rack, both of these options are worth checking out.

Regards
Steve

We heard you!

Nice One

Balance AND Objectivity in a stand thread........

Now there's a first

P

Hi P
Ojectivity coupled with technological ineptitude. Now deleted the offending half post. Don't know what happened, site seems a bit erratic tonight.
Regards
Steve

I also have doubts of the merits of match between CDSII and Mana. The presentation becomes too "edgy" for my ears.

However, I have found that putting very thin pieces of cork (0.5 mm thick and 5 mm in diameter, cut fromvine bottle cork) between my Mana Reference Top and the CDSII's metal feet will do wonders.

Just a thought

Anders

I have said it before.

I had a lot of Mana ( Phase 9+5) at the same time I bought the Fraim.
For me, Mana sounded artificial. Information was taken away and the edgy way of presentation maby made things feeling faster but was boring compared.
Like a Nait1 compared to 252/50. No, Mana was not that good. More like a sangria compared to a very good Amarone.
And my Mana set-up was more expensive than the Fraim I bought.
I would rather swap my Nap 500 for a 140 than going back to Mana.

/Erik

Fraim's just so ugly!

Do the brushed aluminium pillars do anything or are the just aesthetic, ie do they sit there to cover spacer poles?

I reckon poles, about 1.5" in diameter would look the dog's... as it is it just looks too bulky to me (I know I'm in the minority!)

I have to agree with Christopher on this one - Fraim is ugly, even uglier than Mana. I take quite an interest in design (its part of my job too) and the Fraim just looks like every other over aluminised piece of so called desirable equipment.

If everything is purely functional and acoustic properties left little room for aesthetic considerations I can forgive, but otherwise the design is boring, mainstream and panders too much the current idea of what furniture should look like. I don't think its a classic design thats going to be around in 50 years, more of a Porsche Boxster than a 911. After saying all of this, I do realise that the aesthetics will appeal more to the majority and blend in well with many rooms - a wise marketing decision - but I like my designs to add something new to a genre.

Hello Christopher,

My subjective experience with Fraim has suggested that the wide aluminum uprights are structural in nature and not merely to entice lovers of the shiny shiny. They are made of extruded aluminium and do cover a steel bolt. The threaded cone that screws over the bolt snugs the light but rigid extrusion against the bottom of the shelf. The width of the extruded piece seems to give a lot of horizontal rigidity.

Poles 1.5" might look the dog's whathaveyou but would not do what the Fraim does.

I own the Fraim in cherry with black uprights. I'm not a huge fan of the natural aluminium. Black gear with wood shelves and silver uprights... "Too many ideas" as my wife might say. Although the natural might lighten the appearance of its volume and reflect some of the colors of the room, making it blend in a little more. Did the maple and silver fraim that had all the Linn gear on it reflect any of those exciting colors of that parisian carpet it was sitting on? Pretty.

Most stands are as ugly as the electronics that are put on them. It reminds me of when I was a wee lad and me mum let me pick out my own clothes. I picked my favorite striped shirt and my favorite light blue plaid pants and went on my way. Each item was delicious on its own but looked crap when piled ontop of the other. The way most sexy design statements of various stands and electronics look when piled up is a disaster. I think naim's stand, like their equipment, is designed to be understated visually. It's not all things for all people, and it bugs me that the glass shelves slide around on the ballbearings, but damn it sounds great in my system and I think it looks... delicious.

Connon

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Sorry, guys, I have to be honest.

My personal experience of both supports with Naim equipment suggests to me that the Fraim is a well constructed, good sounding, support for the audiophile who's not overtly adventurous (sonically speaking) and who considers the Fraim's styling essential to his/her aesthetic considerations. It's also a clever product in the true marketing tradition. However, in my experience, it's ultimately hampered by an inability to address known areas of sound degradation as successfully as Mana - and that is its downfall.

It's not a bad product by any means - for some it will prove to be better than Mana. However, in my opinion, that's usually because they can't cope with/aren't used to the (sometimes) uncompromising sound of live music and the realistic rendition of instruments & vocals.

Marco.

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Well that's it then, Stallion speaks and we should thank him again for his most valued opinion, thread closed...like who gives a shit

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Well that's it then, Stallion speaks and we should thank him again for his most valued opinion, thread closed...like who gives a shit

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you're surprised that someone using the dreaded m*** is banging on like some crazed religious fanatic?
You shall burn in hell infidel!

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Hell no, I thought my OPINION was rather open-minded and balanced myself.

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it was until you said this:

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that's usually because they can't cope with/aren't used to the (sometimes) uncompromising sound of live music and the realistic rendition of instruments & vocals.

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uncompromising sound of live music and the realistic rendition of instruments & vocals.

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used instead of "bloody harsh and strident"

Derek

"They seek an artificial, 'rounded off' type of sound from their hi-fi systems that's completely alien to the real sound of unamplified instruments and vocals".

By inference is this your estimation of fraim and its users priorities? To my (obviously biased) ears fraim is neutral, balanced and full of detail and groove. Mana over emphasises the leading edge at the expence of other attributes IMO.

"I even had a Fraim at one point!"

Should that read 'borrowed from a dealer' once? I don't want to be petty but to me there is a difference.